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a religious man asked me this question, and I replied, because its not god that is killing us. God gave us life, he gave us a brain and what we do with it is our fault. Like war, god did not create war people did, god did not create global warming, we did. And as for illness is it not gods blessing to take us away before the pain gets to bad? what are your opinions?
Arachnid. I think you do have a great point. I believe we might actually see eye-to-eye on a lot of things, but this argument is just a bit rough considering our different standings. I thank-you for going on to further explain yourself and your theories. The way I view my religion is not in the same way as Christians view theirs; I was just trying to prove a point on their behalf, or at least, try to explain a bit more on where they are coming from.
Personally? I believe that yes, there is something else out there-how else could we explain the human soul? Or how life itself begins? (repeating what I said earlier). Is there a miniature big bang that happens inside the womb every time a child is conceived? That and maybe a few other miracles that science just hasn't figured out yet. When they do, maybe I'll join your side. XDD
But seriously, the way I see it is that even though there is that higher-entity or whatever (in my belief), it isn't going to stop pain or suffering, or anything else similar to that. It's not going to send us a miracle, but it gives me strength on a personal level that no one else can or will, because I believe in it, and it manifests it’s power in myself to help in that way when I do something.
With the part about the doctor, well, I would think the situation is a little bit different wouldn't it?
The doctor denying giving the child medicine is just a man fancying at "Playing God", if you will (lol, reminds me of Juno...funny line...ANYWAY), but the point is that the human doctor is not "God" Or whatever we're talking about, because "God" (or the Spirit) isn't human, and that doctor doesn't know everything that "God" does, does he? And so yes, I agree, that does make him a monster, BECAUSE he's a human, trying to do "God's" job.
Which is why I think the situations are entirely different.
About the part where you asked:
'And if you asked them if they'd rather have the strength or their loved ones back, I'm guessing they wouldn't say they like things how they are.'
(Sorry I'm jumping around here), I would have to reply with this.
If that were possible, everyone /would/ be lining up again wouldn't they? Hmm, that sounds an awful lot similar to the Christian belief of "Heaven" doesn't it? Where people can have their loved one's back and they can rejoice and be happy forever? Who wouldn’t want that?
That's why people believe so much. Because of love.
Personally, I believe in rebirth and that little cliché' line of, "The people that I've lost are still with me in my heart(soul)."
Sure, everyone wants their loved ones back, and I understand that strength can be looked at as a ludicrous excuse, especially from your standpoint of how, "the world today would be the same if “God” didn't exist",
But now I challenge you to look at the past, and then see if you can connect it with the present. In a majority of some critical points during humanity's history, faith was the only thing that kept them going, faith was the only thing that they had left in times of suffering or death being swarmed all around them.
If the idea of “God” or “God” itself didn’t exist back then, the world we live in today would most definitely not have been the same place. Religious fervor would have never occurred, causing determination and strong will in critical standpoints in the Earth’s history, people wouldn’t have changed there ways with the reason, “Why should I?”
With the idea of “God” people had a higher being to look up to, and to try and emulate with their choices and actions. The idea of a higher being did, and still does give so many people a faith that sometimes just blows my mind.
But most importantly, with people’s faith, come’s their hope. And hope is one of the main reasons for a person’s survival; mentally, that is.
And call me overdone and spiritualistic, but I that's why I still have faith in the Spirit. To always continue to hope for a better tomorrow, and so I can do what I can for a better today.
JEESH!
I ramble too much.
Could we just be friends with different religious views? XDD
Thanks for a great reply that made me think~
Arachnid,
I think that your replies are generally well-thought out and have good points to them, but what I'm noticing in them is your failure to plain accept anyone else's ideas but your own as a somewhat Good idea. You're attacking people just because they believe in something, and you think that everything you're saying is completely true.
And you have basis for that, I completely understand where you're coming from. But sometimes I feel that you are being extremely close-minded.
To answer your above comment (since both Briand and Kimibug repeated some of what I said earlier), suffering does make people stronger.
The child catching Malaria and dying from it-that might not be making the child stronger, but maybe it's preparing the people around or close to the child, making them stronger. I know that sounds cruel, but sometimes it is just the way it is. Maybe it's not just that, but it’s also whatever’s up there trying to send a message as in, "PEOPLE, WE NEED VACCINES DOWN HERE NOW!!!”
I think it's all interconnected in a grand plan. Yeah, people will suffer and die. That IS a part of life, whether we like it or not. I have no belief that any day now a miracle will come shooting down from the Heavens and stop EVERYONE from suffering, do you? I also don't think that anyone is really understanding the fact that we're all bringing it back to, "BECAUSE GOD MADE IT SO."
Why didn't God do this? Why didn't God do that? Why does God allow this?
I find that's what all humans fall back on. Blaming it on the higher ups. Why can't we ever take the blame for ourselves?
In the Bible it says that "God" gave us free will. (not that follow the Bible’s teachings, but since we’re arguing the Christian God here…I‘ll use it as a guide.)
The choices we make are our OWN. WE as PEOPLE are to blame for the way things happen, because of the choices WE make.
Here, think of it as a Sims game. “God” plays it 24/7, BUT, butbutbutbut BUT! He can't control any of our actions. Call it a glitch, or maybe he just likes playing that way, but he can't. He can make the first two people(though I don't even think he did that), but then their kids, their genetics change, and their moods change, and the way they act change as time goes on. People live and die, and “God” can only watch.
"God" can put us in situations to see us cope, to “strengthen us”.
I know people who have lost people. Children, families, friends. And it’s completely and totally true that those people are some of the strongest that I know.
But personally, from my standpoint as a Wiccan, I think that there's always a connection between life and death, and how it affects the world. I believe there is a connection to everything.
glugs water
I need to learn to stop typing/talking.
Sorry for the ramble people. Just trying to make a point...um...yeah. Sorry. ^^
I will say I am a christian and I dont have a problem with that but I do not force my believes upon anyone who doesnt want them.
god didnt make suffering. man did. god choose not to make us robot freaks that obey everything he wants. he gave us a choice he wanted us to be free to follow him. in a genuine way. he chooses to take some people away from us because their suffering may be more than we know and would you rather see your mother,father,sister,brother. or whoever suffering with a horrible disease that is killing them from the inside slowly or would you rather see them be released from that kind of pain. but I will say that death is not always the answer. just because something bad happens dont go and kill youself over it. if something bad happens you are supposed to enter a healing proccess. you say religion has become harmful because we stray away srom the truth. we choice to only believe some parts. we make adjusments to make it not seem as bad. incase you havent noticed we live in a fallen world and always will. the lack of belief in God is what makes religon seem so bad. people say they are christians but their lack of a good testimony to people ruins it. people that compromise their religon to make others think highly of themselves. is what has gone wrong. our want of the "american dream" has ruined our relationships with God. has ruined our lifestyles. all we want is money. and sex. and nice things. well were is that going to get us in the end? no where we're all just building a castle in the sand. and when your dead and gone those things will mean nothing they will dissapear. they will mean nothing. God doesnt care about how much stuff you have. he cares about your fath in him your belief in him. and that you can trust him to actually take care of you like he has promised. if you get ill or someone close to you gets ill it is supposed to be somethingyou are to use in your testimony to other people. its called a test. he wants to see how much you truley do love him. and honestly I fear for people that dont believe. because you will end up in Hell. and some people just think Hell is the greatest place. have you ever tried standing next to a bonfire? because its about 100000. times worse. but you dont know that unless you choose to believe in God and his word the bible. if we each choose to live according to his will. and if we each try to help others understand we will actually begin to change the world. until then this is how the world will always be. because this is the path man-kind has chosen.
Many believers try to rationalize God's existence by saying something like this: "The existence of the universe proves God's existence. Something had to create the universe. Science has no explanation for the universe's creation. Therefore, God created it."
The way to understand that this is a rationalization is to look back in history. Ancient people, before they had science, explained many things that they did not understand with "gods." There have been sun gods, thunder gods, fertility gods, rain gods, etc.
The Bible works the same way. It tries to explain many things that its ancient authors did not understand by attributing them in God. For example, if you read Genesis 9:12-13 you will find this:
And God said, "This is the sign of the covenant which I make between me and you and every living creature that is with you, for all future generations: I set my bow in the cloud, and it shall be a sign of the covenant between me and the earth..."
This is the Bible's explanation of rainbows. Of course we now know that rainbows are a prismatic effect of raindrops. In the same way, Genesis chapter 3 tries to explain why human childbirth is so painful and Genesis chapter 11 tries to explain why there are so many human languages. These are myths, nothing more.
In the same way, Genesis chapter 1 contains the Bible's creation myth. The creation of the universe and life is attributed to God. We already know that God had nothing to do with the creation of life, but religious people still try to attribute the creation of the universe to God.
The fact is, God had nothing to do with the creation of the universe, in the same way that God has nothing to do with the sun rising or rainbows appearing. Science does not have a complete explanation for the universe's creation, yet. While it is true that science does not yet know everything there is to know about the universe, scientists will eventually figure it out. When they do, what they will find is that nature created the universe, not an imaginary being.
circius: My whole worldview is based on accepting others' ideas as good ones - but only those that testable and disprovable. What I refuse to accept as a "good idea" is things that are simply based on wishful thinking.
I see all this pious "suffering makes people stronger" and "it's all god's mysterious will", and I find it to be an extremely poor excuse. I challenge you to ask the people who are actually going through suffering if they think they're better off for it. If suffering really is such a good thing, why aren't people lining up for it?
I'm not saying that there aren't people who go through suffering and gain something for it, but I think you'd have a hard time finding anyone who agrees that they'd do it again, or that they preferred the opportunity to suffer.
"I know people who have lost people. Children, families, friends. And it’s completely and totally true that those people are some of the strongest that I know."
And if you asked them if they'd rather have the strength or their loved ones back, I'm guessing they wouldn't say they like things how they are.
To extend my earlier example, imagine a doctor with an endless supply of malaria medicine in a malaria-ridden area who refuses to administer it to a dying child, citing that the suffering will "make him stronger". When the child dies, the doctor piously assures her family that they're better for it - that they're stronger people.
I'm sure you'd agree that anyone in that position would be a monster. Why apply different criteria for a deity?
The simple fact is that you can attribute anything to "god's will" and his "mysterious ways", but really, this world looks remarkably like one without a god would. Stuff just happens.
On one thing we agree: It's up to us to alleviate suffering. I just take exception to the idea that there's some mysterious deity watching all this and agreeing with it as part of his grand plan - and that we would call such a being benevolent.
I believe he exsists.. I heard some that goes like"there was a man at the barber getting his hair cut. The man in the chair asked his barber if her believed in god."no" responded the barber."If there were a God there wouldnt be so many people suffering." The man in the chair wanted to show that God truly did exist. After a while a man with a long beard was passing by."barber's dont exist!" exclaimed the man in the chair."what are you talking about the barber asked confused im right here". The man in the chair pointed at the man with the long beard passing by "if they did people wouldnt be walking around with long beards" ."Thats because they need to come to me or else I cant do anything" said the barber. "Exactly!!" exclaimed the man in the chair"You must come to God and let him help you with your problems and you must pray to him for him to answer his prayers"
um I dont know if I said that whole story right but I think you know what im trying to say..
well my friend maria wants to type something
Maria: 1st of all I dont believe in "god" I believe he is somethinng people made up a long time ago to explain nature like the europeans did with their god they had a god of rain and what not I just think "god" is no better than a good luck charm ,they dont work and you just use them when you need them. praying dosent help at all my perspective and im tired of people trying to shove religion down my throat.
I cant speak from a point of view such as a child catching malaria. but I can speak from the point of view of seeing my mother suffer through breast cancer, that grew into a brain tumor. shes lost the use of the right side of her body which is also her dominate side. and I know what it feels like to be so close to losing someone that is very close to me because she is my mother. and the doctors performed their "mircales" but God was the only thing that allowed her to live. sure I didnt loose her. but we still must deal with a disability that PT. will never heal. so we trust God to keep her safe. We trust God and his timing with what happens to her. and to us. if I loose my mother I will be hurt a lot. but I will know she is done with this suffering she must deal with each and everyday. and I could continue but I'll choose to stop for now. I respect your opinon in the upmost. because if you dont want to believe the same thing as me thats your choice I cant force you into anything.
I think that Belial has a very valid point in his explanation-as atheist as it is, it's true. There is a science behind everything, and not everything that the Bible says is true.
To answer the question personally, I would have to quote Mother Teresa:
"I know that every challenge that God gives me is a sign of trust, but I wish he didn't trust me so much."
Now, I'm not Christian myself, but I do love that quote because I think it has a great meaning to it. I think that there does have to be some sort of entity up there, because even scientist can't explain the miracle of life or what the human soul is-and those two things have been apart of the critical points of all religion since the beginning of time.
And I think that bad things happen because it is trying to challenge us as people, to make us better and allow us to grow. There is a reason for everything, and I personally think that everything can change if we want it to-if we do something.
I hope that helps! ^^
ok, I just want to say that I'm in a state of religious confusion. I'm starting to doubt things that I wouldn't think twice about when I was 4. No matter what you believe, I think that you can all agree that life is wut you make it (please excuse the reference to Hannah Montana, lol, didn't mean to) and Heaven and Hell may just be right here on Earth. You see homeless people, starving people, sick, dying people on tv and on the street everyday. There are rich, spoiled, arrogant people oblivious to the suffering they endure. These people have everything they could ever want. then, there's like average people, making just enough to live comfortably, but still go through the occasional hardship. When you die, there may not be anything for you to wake up to, so you might as well live life to the fullest 'cause you can make yur own heaven anf hell right here, devils and angels and all.
<3 Lovestruck7233
I'm am sorry for Maria's rude comment she is just like that this is her computer she is allowing me to use so yeah..
Maria: LOL I agree with daydreamer161 XD and if you believe so strongly about this "fau" why mark your question so that people dont know who you are . ashamed? thouht so. and me ridiculous?!?!? who is the one Making up and imaginary friend and naming him "god". the earth and humans are here because of simple science. I didnt say you were trying to shove religion down my throat when I said people I meant it in general. oh and carjon11208 look up lakewood church its houston's largest church when I go there,I mean forced to go there my mother made me go meet some marcos dude the pastor for the spanish service. thats what he said "he's like no matter if you believe or dont believe god is here and he exsits he got so mad and I just calmly told him what I think . WOw he made a fool of himself.
I never said that I believed God is omnipotent. I actually don't believe that he is really, I don't know obviously. Perhaps he can do whatever he wants so long as it doesn't conflict with something he is already doing, as that obviously would. And what would be the purpose in having a life where everything was good? If everything was good it wouldn't actually be good, it would be nonexistant, because good is only good because bad exists. Not suffering only exists because suffering does. If all you take out of your suffering is hey why didn't anyone help me? then you aren't really living in a good fashion. Why didn't you help someone else out of their suffering? But truly I would rather have my good times with my bad than to not have any times at all.
Humans are not as bad as Christians make them sound, and their arguments to defend this god, that doesn't even exist, are pathetic and makes their god look so as well.
What is gods reason that innocent humans have to suffer because of other humans inconvenience? Sorry you say god created humans, god created suffering in the first the place, since we are mistakes.
Hey flossheal, I wonder if your answer was directed at everyone or religious people? Well there is growing evidence that higher rates of religion delusion causes social dysfunction. Where as places with higher levels of atheism are more charitable, and healthy. Overall religion seems to be harmful not helpful.
I asked this same question recently. It does seem to me that any being that is omnipotent, and so can do anything at all with no effort on their part, must be extremely malevolent if they fail to intervene in the world as it stands. Millions of people die of preventable diseases, starvation, lack of clean drinking water, crime, and so on - all preventable with no effort at all by an omnipotent god. If christian mythology is to be believed, most people will also suffer eternal torment for mistakes they make, too. Do either of those sound like the actions of a benevolent creator to you?
GOD made free will so that we can come to him. If we didn't suffer we wouldn't appreciate anything! Everyone suffers and it is truly your choice to believe in him. I challenge you to SEEK him the next time you are going through something! Stop trying it your way! He said that everything will come to an end! including suffering. Haven't you ever noticed that when you get something taken away you cherish it more when you finally get it back? The only way you'll know GOD is if you SEEK GOD! He's showed his self to you everyday and you think that he is not there. GOD iS REAL!
Yes, exactly...
Man is responsible for most of the suffering on this earth.
God will help, if he is invited.
He does not move, without man inviting him into situations.
His help is available, but, he places conditions on it.
Those conditions must be met.
And we have to accept his will, when we seek him.
Man has the power to alleviate much of the suffering on planet earth, but, he chooses to use his resources selfishly.
For self.
What are you willing to do, to help others?
Okay... here we go... God lets bad things in life happen to people to make them stronger and then in the long run things get better because he made them he is showing you that if you go to him he will help you a lot of people blame God for their problems instead of asking for help and just because it doesn't come right away dosen't mean it won't come at all. except God as your personal savior and things will turn around or at least ask him to let you know that he is there. he will
God gave us living breathing pooping LIFE! what we decide to do with it is our choice. like the gangs out there? God didnt make up gangs that was peoples idea. I mean adam & eve ate the fruit, God didnt tell them to, God told them NOT TO. the bible is like a book of rules I guess you could say and nowhere in it does God say that we can go around doing against this book, people just choose to.
God gave us living breathing pooping LIFE! what we decide to do with it is our choice. like the gangs out there? God didnt make up gangs that was peoples idea. I mean adam & eve ate the fruit, God didnt tell them to, God told them NOT TO. the bible is like a book of rules I guess you could say and nowhere in it does God say that we can go around doing against this book, people just choose to.
"god didnt make suffering. man did. god choose not to make us robot freaks that obey everything he wants. he gave us a choice he wanted us to be free to follow him."
Couldn't god create a world in which there is no - or at least much less - suffering while still giving us free will? He's omnipotent, right?
What purpose does the suffering caused when a child catches malaria serve?
Why do people assume that god is nice, if there is a god?
He could just as easily be a sadistic jerk who created us just to torture us. Actually, that's what a lot of early Christians believed, and so they invented a second god who was nice to be the god of the evil god of this creation.
More info on this here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MarcionofSinope
lol god is just to make people feel safe in the world when there realy is not = / people who turn to god for help are weak and pathetic...not realy but 'god' is not going to hold your hand through your life you have to stand up for your self its the 21st century and there is crazy people who will want to hurt you and its not like you can pray them to sleep XDD
briand88: So to make it clear - you believe that it's not possible for your god to decrease suffering while preserving free will? Wouldn't that make him less than omnipotent?
And for both of you, asserting that suffering "makes people stronger": What purpose does the suffering caused when a child catches malaria serve? What if they die of it?
Like you said we make ourselves suffer. God already gave us the answers to all our questions when he let his son Jesus Christ die on the cross for all of our sins. He'll never put more on us than what we can bare. Its up to us when we choose what road take. Some people just have their own opinions about about our God. You just be blessed.
I agree mostly with nlocnll that most Christians (but also just most people in general) don't have any real concern with starving people in Africa and what not. That was the original reason I seperated from the church. But it wasn't because of the actual religion, that part is fine, it is just humanity and most people's uncaring nature.
We got either suffering, knowledge and the gift of choice, or else a world in which we could not choose what to do and could not know or learn. I would choose the knowledge I have gained through my suffering any day as opposed to not being able to make my own mistakes.
I think the basic questioner has got it pretty much right. The majority of problems on the planet are caused by selfishness, and if we followed the rules of most major faiths we would spend a lot more time thinking about other people and a lot less on ourselves.
BECAUSE THE BIBLE SAYS "THE WORLD IS IN THE HANDS OF THE WICKED ONE" BUT SOON GOD WILL DO AWAY WITH ALL SUFFERING...DO YOU PEOPLE READ??? I NEVER SEE ANYONE QUOTE SCRIPTURES ON THIS SITE THAT BACKS UP WHAT THEY ARE TALKING ABOUT!
I have to agree with you on most of it, God gave us will and he left it in our hands, what we do with it is not up to him, some people cause suffering, and some people suffer, but God is always there no matter what you think.
First of all I want to say my name is priscilla I am the owner of this acconut but since this is maria's laptop she writes what she thinks. so dont take out anything on me
-priscilla
Maria: I did but to make you feel special believe what you want. its funny how you arent original to come up with your own comments instead of just using mine :o yeah thought so
If we never had any life experience from getting over bad stuff wed be as mature as babies. Its philosophy of life I dont believe in god
I love you people =D lol just kidding I don't know why but I like emos but im not an emo and im not in to that shiz ahhahahahhaha
Just so everyone knows, I can tell who "fau" is for each thing posted. So being rude under anonymous doesn't hide you from me :)
=D add me if you agree =P I will even allow the ones who disagree hahhahah I need friends on this handy website =O
-chops tongue off feeds it to fishes-
Go stick a toothpick under your toe nail and kick a wall ;)
Maria: yeah I saw the pic and I went to your page before you made the questionunknown and what not
hahahahah lmao I dont believe in magical sh*t XDD especially no heaven or hell = /
according to the bible God allows suffering so that pople will come closer to Him
maria may I rule next to you while kicking the deviles a** muaahhahaha
lol same here I dont believe DONT SHOOT its MY opinion XD
god isnt real in my opinion and I agree with daydreamer161
I dont think he exists so dont SHOOT me its MY opinion
Maria: I was atheist until I realized...I was God ;)
ummm, ok... This is quite silly!
interesting I agree with maria
thats cool =)... and nice =D
& you are correct dani89
Maria: Exactly ;)
Maria: ty