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I do have one problem with religion. Well, with some religious people actually. Not with religion in general. I totally don't care if people pray to a god, a flying invisible spaghetti monster or even a demon, as long as they don't expect me or others to act according to their faith.
Some - not all but some - religious people insist that their faith is the one and only truth. And as soon as you say anything against that, they say you turn against religion. They insist that they can say illogical, obviously false and insane things and ask me to not contradict but respect their faith. And then some of them will insult people because they are different. Because they have a different god, because they have no god or because they have chosen a lifestyle that is contradictory to their teachings. And they insist that they can insult or molest these people - even that they are obliged to do so - because doing that is a part of their "faith". They call that freedom of faith then.
Now if I insist on my freedom of speech and tell the world that those folks are talking bullsh!t they are angry. They say 'm against "freedom of faith". And I say: WTF?
To me, it's that way: You can say anything you want to, as long as you can live with the echo. If you say that trees are generally red then you have to live with it that I'm calling you a color blind. If you say that the world is 6000 years old, because some old book said so, then you have to live with people throwing scientific facts in your general direction. You can say it, because you are free to say whatever you want to say. But everyone else can do that, too. Saying whatever they want to say. You have absolutely no entitlement to say anything and declare it uncontradictable.
Look at it that way: I'm for equality of races. I'll help people who are attacked or discriminated against because of their skin color. And I'm for equal rights of homosexuals. I'll help people who are attacked or discriminated against because of their sexuality. And I also support equal rights of religious groups. I'll help people who are attacked or discriminated against because of their faith.
But I would NOT agree that everyone is supposed to fake-tan their skin until all people look black. I would NOT agree that everyone should turn gay or lesbian. And I will NOT agree that everyone should respect the illogical, false teachings of any certain faith.
I agree that people will never agree. However, I don't see how it is anyone's business what two consenting adults do with another consenting adult. My God doesn't think its wrong, and I don't have a problem with it. Who's God is right? Are you going to tell me my God is wrong? How do you know and who are you to say? Homosexuals compromising the sanctity of marriage huh? What about all of the people who cheat and have a "love child"? What about the people who specifically marry for money? The men who order mail order brides and the brides who are okay with it so they can gain citizenship? (I actually know a married couple who did that) What about the drunks in Vegas who think it would be fun to get married....You know, just because? What about the irritated or money hungry spouses that take hits out on their other half? I would think that these acts are a threat to the sanctity of marriage, but they are not nearly as big of an issue as two people of the same sex who genuinely love each other. These heterosexual offenders should have their rights of marriage stripped away. However, these people still have the right to marry even though they abuse it. That is just not fair! I'm not saying that these would not happen in the gay community at all, but if people are going to use the "sanctity of marriage" excuse, at least make sure its an even playing field first. I was just wondering Sam, how Jimahl is misinformed. Simply telling a person they are misinformed without offering supporting reasons does not help your argument... (thats not a shot at you btw and if it seems as such, I sincerely apologize) :)
You are absolutely right. Try to keep in mind that many homosexuals are constantly judged, discriminated against, and hounded by those who are both religious and non religious. It gets to be a bit cumbersome to deal with after a while and all they want is to be treated and have the rights of heterosexual people. When you have people telling you that what you're doing is wrong because "God" says its an abomination, a common rebuttal is telling the person not to pass judgement. When people feel the need to constantly push their beliefs on a person, that person has every right to feel annoyed, stand up for themselves, and point out the fact that judging is not very christian like behavior. If a christian wants to tell a homosexual that they are wrong, then a homosexual can tell a christian that they are wrong for judging. Moral of the story? Keep your nose out of other peoples business!
Because fundamentalist (and personally I only have problems with fundamentalism, not milder forms of religion) religion is against equality, simple as that. To support and protect equality there is a need to fight inequality. Fundamentalism is inherently unequal and discriminatory - there's hate or discrimination against gays, lesbians, women, etc etc. Sometimes even slavery and torture are involved. These all involve the unfair exertion of power by certain people over others - it is unequal. It seems blindingly obvious to me (a non-believer) that supporting equality entails opposing such outdated and inhumane practices - there's absolutely no contradiction at all. I'm all for freedom of religion - it's only when religions try to assert themselves over others and attempt to perpetuate hateful, bigoted beliefs that I find myself having a problem with religious people.
Okay okay, that makes sense. Both sides have their personal rights infringed upon, but is it better to have people do what they want and ignore it or to try to make change and correct it? Of course, who is to say who is correct, but sometimes change is neccessary. I agree with you and understand why now both sides are up in arms, but to say that we should let them be is basically ignoring all the bad in the world, and i would never do that. There is no compromise. Which is unfortunate because that means, eventually, someone is gonna get hurt. People will never agree, and this rift began the rift from equality away from liberty and vise versa. Course now, we call those people that favor equality Democrats, and those that favor liberty Republicans.
I don't see any correlation between supporting equality and having issues with religious teachings. If a religion is intolerant & judgmental, and someone criticizes them for it, that is not treating them with any kind of bias. It is merely stating an opinion about the religion's own bias. It would be different if someone is saying that they should not have the right to practice their religion. That would be beyond inequality.
I believe many, not most, but many Christians are far more biased against non-believers than the other way around. There are many who think that we should have Christianity as the official religion of the US. That is extremely biased against non-christians.
So according to your theory, if one supports equality, one must equally support everything? I sense a slight flaw in your logic. If one perceives something to be against equality, why shouldn't they have issues with it? Let me give you an example, freedom of speech has it's limitations. You cannot shout fire in a crowded place. Same thing. One can support the idea of equality, without supporting a particular religious ideal. Especially against those who use the christian religion to support their bigotry and lack of equality (i.e. those who used christianity to support slavery, segregation, racism, homophobia, sexism against women, etc etc etc).
No one is infringing on a person's right to practice their religion. The criticism is not an infringement on their rights, and it mostly caused by a religion's inability to accept that other people's behavior is none of their business. No one is trying to tell the religious person that they should stop going to church, or to stop praying. But the religious person is telling the homosexual that they should not be allowed to get married. THAT is an infringement on their rights. And Democrats favor liberty & equality. Republicans favor the rich and corporations.
The basic problem with religion is, that it is declared inerrant and infallible by it's followers. And they just assume that everyone else is wrong. Every doubt among their own folks is seen as sinful. To make it completely weird, several religions say the same. They all have the "one and only" god and the "solely accurate teaching". So logically either all of them or all but one of them must be wrong. But many of the followers of such religions still insist that their personal religious group owns the absolute truth.
From what you stated above it seems as if they were not "holding it against" the christian. They are simply stating that judging is very unchristian like behavior. I don't see it as turning someones religion around on them. More like pointing out a behavior that does not coincide with christianity. You know, the old "He who lives in a glass house shouldn't throw stones." Or "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone."
In my eyes it's because it is dealing with god and going to heaven, and if there are other religions who believe in a different god or gods and for example resurrection, then it gives the one person who believes in heaven doubt that maybe there is no heaven and that he should believe in resurrection instead. People obviously want to believe in their belief and anybody giving them doubt about it is then "bad".
Mmmhmm. A good analogy I think would be r*pe. A thief might say "But I have a right to choose who I have relations with." Yeah, as long as it doesn't infringe on the right of someone else to choose as well. Enjoying your rights requires that you respect and uphold the rights of others as well, and this also applies to religion.
well, okay. what i was originally thinking about that inspired my question is, why would someone use a religion they obviously care nothing about against those who follow it? Hence the old, if you were a real christian, you wouldnt judge me or get mad. Coming from a homosexual.
given recalling what you may of had on mind may not always be easy. But if it's a rebuttal to something I'm sure you still have even a slight idea in which you can re-read what you were going to debate with & re-build a new rebuttal
If you have that again, go to the "back" button of your browser. If you're lucky, the text is still there. Then you can change the evil word into "terroar" or something and post again. I do it all the time.
@ TY, I completely agree @ Sam, just retype it. Make sure to copy your work before hitting submit just in-case so you can paste it & fix what's wrong. It's that easy.
Well, if the world was equal as certain people try to make it (behavior), people who believed in religion wouldnt have to defend it or be subject to criticism.
I wouldn't say non-believers care nothing about certain religions, it's just that we don't believe in the premise of said religions. Not mutually exclusive.
i had a super long reply but unfortunately i used the naughty word t!error. oh well, a debate for another day.
Same thing with me. I don't have a problem with god. But some of his fan clubs are really pissing me off...
Haha don't worry - we both know which religions we're talking about ;)
There are some religions which don't fit that description.
it is goooone now. short term memory loss plauges me.
Yeah. You're right. I'm being unfair. Sorry :-(
Sorry I meant a rapisd not a thief
you are sadly misinformed jimahl.
Belief ≠ care/interest
