Hello, ok my question is why do some atheists feel so strongly about not believing in god and putting down everyone who does? Is it ok for us to believe what we want to believe without them calling us ignorant, uneducated, or living in a fantasy world every chance they get? Seems like they are trying to force their beliefs on us just as much as they say we're doing that to them. Just wondering... Do atheists try to convert as well?
rnealw, I said they were athiests or diests. As politicians, they could not outright deny the existence of god in public (some things never change). However, there is plenty of evidence to show they were all at least deists, and were not practicing christians.
Jefferson wrote this about what Gouverneur Morris told him about Washington: "I know that Gouverneur Morris, who claimed to be in his secrets, and believed himself to be so, has often told me that General Washington believed no more in that system [Christianity] than he did."
The Reverend Bird Wilson wrote the following: "I have diligently perused every line that Washington ever gave to the public, and I do not find one expression in which he pledges, himself as a believer in Christianity. I think anyone who will candidly do as I have done, will come to the conclusion that he was a Deist and nothing more."
The Right Reverend William White, friend of Washington and bishop of Christ's Church in Philadelphia where he attended for about 25 years when in the city, wrote: "In regard to the subject of your inquiry, truth requires me to say that General Washington never received the communion in the churches of which I am the parochial minister. Mrs. Washington was an habitual communicant. I have been written to by many on that point, and have been obliged to answer them am as I now do you."
The Reverend Bird Wilson also wrote: "Though the General attended the churches in which Dr. White officiated, whenever he was in Philadelphia during the Revolutionary War, and afterwards while President of the United States, he was never a communicant in them."
Thomas Jefferson wrote: "Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call to her tribunal every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a god; because, if there be one, he must approve the homage of reason rather than of blind-folded fear. Do not be frightened from this inquiry by any fear of its consequences... If it end in a belief that there is no god, you will find incitements to virtue in the comfort and pleasantness you feel in its exercise and in the love of others it will procure for you" (note, the non-capitalization of god. That is accurate, and how he often wrote it.)
Another jefferson quote: "I may grow rich by an art I am compelled to follow; I may recover health by medicines I am compelled to take against my own judgment; but I cannot be saved by a worship I disbelieve and abhor."
Jefferson in a letter to Adams: "The Christian priesthood, finding the doctrines of Christ leveled to every understanding, and too plain to need explanation, saw, in the mysticism of Plato, materials with which they might build up an artificial system which might, from it’s indistinctness, admit everlasting controversy, give employment for their order, and introduce it to profit, power and pre-eminence."
And in another letter to Adams: "Every Christian sect gives a great handle to Atheism by their general dogma that, without a revelation, there would not be sufficient proof of the being of god."
Or this: "If by religion we are to understand sectarian dogmas, in which no two of them agree, then your exclamation on that hypothesis is just, "that this would be the best of worlds if there were no religion in it.""
And now a few Lincoln Quotes: "My earlier views of the unsoundness of the Christian scheme of salvation and the human origin of the scriptures, have become clearer and stronger with advancing years and I see no reason for thinking I shall ever change them."
"The Bible is not my book nor Christianity my profession."
"The only person who is a worse liar than a faith healer is his patient."
Mary Todd said this: "Mr. Lincoln's maxim and philosophy were: 'What is to be, will be, and no prayers of ours can arrest the decree.' He never joined any Church. He was a religious man always, I think, but was not a technical Christian."
And even the gettysburg address is wrong. The last line where he said "under god" was added later. There were two drafts he wrote that day, and neither of them has it in it.
There is no doubt that these three great thinkers were not christians at all.
I wont sugar coat it, yeah I dont really care if people believe in god but I do find them kind of ignorant and will tell them so if they start telling me all this god stuff. what you should be asking is, dont you think its messed up that at 1 point in time if you didnt believe they would kill you? isnt it messed up that they banned sooo many books that it held spain back from the scientific revolution? soo many messed up things in the name of god, most likely even more messed up things than I have mentioned, maybe you should ask the second person who posted why he/she got so defensive and had to say we're going to burn in hell, and believing for the sake of being safe must be even worse LOL I dont believe in heaven or hell or any of that stuff and im going to be dead before we find out how we got here and who put us here so why stress it, and if I die and it ends up being true that hell is real, id much rather be there because I know like 89% of the world is going to be there, and even tho I dont believe in satan he doesnt sound like such a bad guy, and I bet people are going to say yeah he is a bad guy because it says so in the bible LOL but thats just it hes just bad because thats what it says. I think religion just holds back humanity.
As I've said before, there are bad apples in every bunch whether atheist, Christian, Muslim, etc. There are some atheists who seem to get off on showing up a Christian. That certainly doesn't help our community's image.
Certainly, there is no "evangelical" movement or door-to-door witnessing among atheists (yet) but you do sometimes see those who are determined to correct every statement or belief they perceive as a mistake. I can see where that might be interpreted as an attempt to convert.
As for the comments you mentioned, I do believe that there are some believers who are "ignorant, uneducated, and living in a fantasy world." That doesn't make them bad people - just unexposed to science and the world around them. Domzila is a great example: his comments regarding evolution would be funny if they weren't so sad. Obviously, he's never been exposed to the science behind evolution or he'd know that it's not "retarded" and not "just a theory." It's very frustrating when people make ignorant statements like this and then offer no proof to back them up.
Do I have the right to criticize his bad science? Yes! Do I have the right to demean him and insult him? No! Wisdom is knowing the difference.
Correct evolution is a waste of time, thats why they still teach it as a theory. If you look at the fossil records they have not transitional stage in between species. Thats why it will always be theory because all they have is circumstantial evidence. However the fossil records don't be default support creationism either. And yes, some atheists seem to want to convert just as some religious people do, it's just how some people are.
And as for being educated or living in a fantasy world, heres something. If all of our existence is determined by electrical and chemical impulses interpreted through our brains, you cannot even prove that there is an existence, let alone that there are things such as laws of physics or facts or God or hell you can't even be sure you exist. You could be a computer program or the dream of some other creature. Ironic how science just proves that you cannot prove a damned thing, that ironic argument therefore defeats itself, how funny. "All are insane, but those who can analyze their delusions are philosophers" (Ambroce Bierce)
I read that, but more importantly, I read the letter itself. John Brooke is a theology professor. Anyone who uses the famous 'science without religion is lame' quote without explaining the context is an obvious apologist, not an objective analyst.
You link above this post, beside being obviously set up to paint Einstein as a creationist (why else was Pat Buchanan there asking asinine religious questions) , is irrelevant anyway. The author did not have access to this recently revealed letter. All he had were the prior well known dozen or so quotes related to religion.
Einstein rejected the label 'atheist', but I would too if I was an atheist 60 years ago. 60 years ago, the word 'atheist' was synonymous with 'communist'. Deist was the name naturalists called themselves at the time. Einstein's "god" was simply nature itself. If you can't bear to call the disbelief in supernatural gods 'atheism', that really doesn't change what it is.
"peacemakin im srry but your going to burn in hell athiests believe in themselves and think that an explosion made the universe well your wrong VERY WRONG casue god made ther universe and not some ball of dust"
Please reconcile this part of your statement with the next part:
"if you ridicule other ppls religions your really need help cause I dont have any problem with you being an athiest but I have a problem with you makin fun of other ppls religions like that"
You apparently have a problem with someone ridiculing other people's religions, yet you don't mind ridiculing their beliefs and views, or telling them that they will burn in hell.
You are part of the reason many atheists view religious people with complete disdain.
I'm atheist... and personally, I don't care if you believe in god as long as you keep it to yourself. I don't try to make anyone believe what I believe, I just explain my beliefs to anyone if they are curious. I find my beliefs so logical, I would never see it any other way.
Atheists call christians ignorant and uneducated becuase if you actually HAD taken the time to learn about evolution... until it made sense, that is... you would understand it... and most likely incorperate into your beliefs.
to "lol thats funny": I find it odd how you (and most religious people) relate the belief in evolution to athiesm. News flash: you can believe in creation AND evolution. Plenty of people I know do.
womanofvirtue, how many times a day here do Christians quote the "pearls before swine" tripe from the Bible? How often is "a fool says in his heart there is no God" garbage quoted here? How often do we read variations of Pascal's wager (I see one in the OP)?
Believers own the real world through sheer numbers and a historical willingness to commit violence against anyone who disagrees with them. But online, those divisive beliefs can be challenged safely.
...and so they shall be.
Do I try to "convert"? Yes and no. I'm not so interested in what people believe, as I am in why they believe it. To the extent challenging faith is considered 'conversion', then so be it.
You 2 are funny. . . *** A recently released private letter written by Einstein a year before he died, proves he was an atheist.*** I can't find Diest in that sentance any where. All 3 Washington was known for prayer. . If you had said Clinton I would probably believe you. I myself do not support the doctorines of many christian groups and I belong to a church but if I wasn't alive to say so would you say I didn't attend church because I said I didn't support the major Christian doctorines? I honestly thing you are reading stuff in to the blank spaces. .
Have you ever read wahingtons personal diary or his letters?
Oh Washington was Episcopalian like G.H.W. Bush
Actually if you read the whole thing is did believe in some form of higher power. And I quote. In later life, he expressed a sense of wonder at the universe and its mysteries — what he called a "cosmic religious feeling" — and famously said: "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." But he also said: "I do not believe in the God of theology who rewards good and punishes evil. My God created laws that take care of that. His universe is not ruled by wishful thinking, but by immutable laws."
So he would not be a true atheist.
*** Three of our greatest presidents were: Washington, Jefferson, and Lincoln.*** What are you saying?
Read the whole story Toadaly I did. . . The statements I quoted are from a later period than the letters. . I did not call him a believer, I said he recognized a higher power.
Washington - http://www.airpower.maxwell.af.mil/airchronicles/aureview/1976/jul-aug/edavis.html http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GeorgeWashingtonandreligion Jefferson - http://www25.uua.org/uuhs/duub/articles/thomasjefferson.html http://www.secularhumanism.org/library/fi/alley184.html Lincoln - http://www.adherents.com/people/pl/AbrahamLincoln.html http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AbrahamLincolnand_religion
All three clearly believed in God. . .
Washington, Jefferson, Paine, Franklin, and many other renouned men of the age of reason were indeed Deists, not atheists.
Prior to Darwin, there was no plausible alternative to explain the existence of life other than to propose an intelligent creator of some kind.
But I wouldn't make too much of their religious beliefs. According to Christian dogma all these men are in hell right now.
rnealw, have you ever heard of Andrew Carnegie, Harry Truman, Walt Whitman, Alexander Grahm Bell, John Adams, Walt Disney, Eli Whitney, or Dwight Eisenhowser?
Well according to the the website listed below, all of these men were listed AFTER Thomas Pain in the 100 most influential americans. Thomas Paine is listed as 19th. I think most people would in fact know who Paine was. He was known as The Father of the American Revolution, and he is the one who suggested the name for the new country - The United States of America.
You have a good day too...
As I said I read the whole story. . . Did you miss this part? *** John Brooke, emeritus professor of science and religion at Oxford University, said the letter lends weight to the notion that "Einstein was not a conventional theist" — although he was not an atheist, either. ***
Brooke said Einstein believed that "there is some kind of intelligence working its way through nature. But it is certainly not a conventional Christian or Judaic religious view." You should watch this. . . http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/24579466#24579466
bahaha. all the time theres christians preaching on about how great there god is and why everyone else should believe in him, and then theres people who dont believe in a god and say why. yes both parties can try to convert each other. but christians do it more. athiets and other people just pinpoint all the false facts about god and why they dont believe in him. but chrristians go on about how the world would be a better place if you stopped sinning and gave in to believing in god. so dont be stupid. the world needs all sorts to call it a world
It's not really atheists in general it's the kind of people they are. There are people from every religious path that try to shove their religion down our throats. Theres not much we can do because we live in a country where we have been given freedom of speech. Maybe try listening to someone else opinion sometimes and you will be able to have a more optomistic standpoint on life and be able to comprehend people better. But don't close your self off to new ideas, just because someone tells you their opinion does not mean you have to follow it.
You're right semi1900, you should not be told that. I personally do not like when Christians tell people they will burn in hell. So I give props to meganhead, you r so right and I didnt even think about it like that. just like there are different types of Christians (loving ones and then crazy radical ones), there are different types of atheists and other religions. I guess it's all personality and has nothing to actually do with religion. thanks everyone for commenting and megan for clearing that up for me :)
rneal, the letter I referred to was written in 1954, 1 year before Einstein's death. The quotes you provided are from "Science, Philosophy, and Religion, A Symposium" in 1941.
The only "higher power" he recognized were the laws of nature. In no sense does that have anything to do with what you refer to as 'god' or the supernatural. The letter I referenced, was hidden in a private collection for decades and was only recently revealed. It aught to change your perspective on Einstein's religious beliefs.
To: rnealw From: joseph1949
At best, Einstein believed in Baruch Spinoza’s god.
And what is Baruch Spinoza’s god?
rnealw, why don’t you do some homework and tell me?
To: jimahl and toadaly From: joseph1949
You two need to get off rnealw’s case about him not knowing about Thomas Paine.
Thomas Paine is not in the Bible and this is why he (rnealw) did not know about Paine.
It looks like we have some knowledgeable atheists on this site. Keep up the good work.
I dont know? I dont even understand why they believe in evolution..its the dumbest thing I've ever heard. its soo retarted..they think when we died its just..nothing.they'll burn in hell after they die..and realize they should of believed. I dont even get why..if they're soo "unsure" about everything..why dont they start believeing in God..to be on the safe side.They wont regret it after they die and see Jesus.Well you have to give your life to Jesus first :)
*** "So he would not be a true atheist."
Read the letter. Here are Einstein's own words:
"the word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honorable but still primitive legends which are nevertheless pretty childish."
"the Jewish religion like all other religions is an incarnation of the most childish superstitions."
Do these sound like the words of a believer to you rneal?
"Well I will Honor Einsteins wishes with respect and label him Neither Creationist nor Atheist. . . Out of respect for the mans memory you should do the same."
But he was a deist, and outright rejected all organized religion, and the concept of a god that intervenes in human affairs or offers an afterlife.
You are mincing words...
But it is refreshing to see you have such respect for someone who when alive rejected all of your beliefs.
Many atheists (me included) are flamed on here because we dare to insert our opinon on a religious subject. As people have said there are fanatics all over, but I think those clinging to extreme religious belief (like denying evolution) are indeed ignorant. It is ignorance to deny overwhelming evidence of something simply because it challenges your long-held beliefs. When someone believe that strongly, they are living in a fantasy world.
Most scientists who believe are deists, and come from a very different view than evangelicals and fundamentalists. They certainly don't believe the bible literally. Anyone who takes the creation story from the bible as truth is beyond ignorant. No real person of science could every believe such a ludicrous idea.
Einstein was said to believe in god, but he did not believe in the afterlife or of a god that intervened in our universe.
Unfortunaetly, Einstein misused the words 'god' and religion in such a way as to make it possible for apologists to paint him as a religious man. I even saw Pat Buchanan recently trying to paint Einstein as a creationist! I don't think Buchanan could be more dishonest if he tried.
But I suppose if I were living during the red scare days when atheism was equated with communism, I probably would have said things like Einstein did too.
"Is it ok for us to believe what we want to believe without them calling us ignorant, uneducated, or living in a fantasy world every chance they get?"
Is it ok for us to believe what we want without being told we'll burn in hell for all eternity or that the reason we don't believe in God is because he's "hardened our hearts" or "blinded us to the truth"?
There's a flip side to every coin.
it's ok for people to believe different things, I don't force my ideas on anyone else. on here I just answer the questions...put down my beliefs...or more like non-beliefs. plenty of religious people judge and push their beliefs on non-beleivers on here...it's been seen a lot recently. I and people I know have had abusive comments/messages just cause we don't believe!
athiests believe in themselves and think that an explosion made the universe well your wrong VERY WRONG casue god made ther universe and not some ball of dust. and if you ridicule other ppls religions your really need help cause I dont have any problem with you being an athiest but I have a problem with you makin fun of other ppls religions like that
It's instinctive to look for evidence and arguments that reinforce your preconceptions. It's also instinctive to believe things that please you to believe them.
It takes discipline and training to overcome these instinctive biases. Critical thinking is not instinctive and often flies against common sense. It isn't a matter of intelligence.
Right you are toadaly. Afterall, these men came out of Ithe age of enlightenment.
But if you listen to all the wingnuts on the right, you would think all the founders were devout christians who created this country as christian nation, and that they really didn't mean it when they said there was a wall of separation between church and state.
Well I think it's pretty much the opposite. Why do christians bring atheists down about NOT believe in god? Because if we wanted to we could, but we choose not to. Well all I have to say about this is... Why believe in something with no evidence? And I'm pretty sure a lot of atheists have to agree with that.
*** So I take you agree that Jefferson and Lincoln were deists?*** not really, Deism is the belief that there is a God that created the physical universe but does not interfere with it. They both prayed according to history. But Jefferson was a little on the wild side. . . Paine. . . Whos paine?
WHOA! there are extremists in every group, every religion, every nationalitiy, sexual orientation. No one is better than anyone. maybe we should start teaching our children about tolerance more whose religion is right or wrong. we all have to live together on this itty bitty planet.
Washington went to church, but that does not mean he was christian. His wife was, and he went with her. Please show me where he said he believed in christianity, or even considered himself one..
So I take you agree that Jefferson and Lincoln were deists?
You won't necessarily BURN in Hell. But you sure are going. Let's see how your wits and 'intelligence' will help you get the demons out of your corrupt minds. And don't you guys have jobs, what are you spending so much time arguing on the internet for?
There are many scientists who believe in gods, that's true. But it's not true that many religious scientists have cross examined their religious beliefs.
Scientists tend to be as assuming as anyone else outside their areas of technical expertise.
I really doubt a lot of people would know who Thomas Paine was. .
*** The may have seemed to pray in public, but privately they talked of their distaste of christianity.*** well I guess I can't argue with such hard facts. . . Have a good day.
It's safe to say I just became Athiest due to major mind blow-up... due to the series Death Note.
ANYWAY! I know athiests and none of them put down people like Christians, Catholics, stuff like that.
I dunno, but I was bored...
It's safe to say I just became Athiest due to major mind blow-up... due to the series Death Note.
ANYWAY! I know athiests and none of them put down people like Christians, Catholics, stuff like that.
I dunno, but I was bored...
xxjulixx, I agree that it makes no sense to believe in something without evidence, but I disagree that atheism is a choice. Beliefs are not the result of decisions, they're the result of evidence, argument, and predispositions.
It amazes me how so many of the great minds of this world have been atheists, or diests at best, yet most people don't realize it.
Three of our greatest presidents were: Washington, Jefferson, and Lincoln.
To: rnealw From: joseph1949
You can stop looking for Spinoza’s god in your Bible. The only thing that you can find in your Bible is fairy tales.
For the record, Spinoza’s god is nature!!!
The may have seemed to pray in public, but privately they talked of their distaste of christianity. I think what they said privately is more indiciative of their ture beliefs.
How can you be involved in a discussion of the religious perspectives of the founding fathers and not know who Paine is!?
ame, your god is evil. An eternity spent worshiping a monster like that as a lobotomized automaton sounds just as bad as the ridiculous fantasy world you call hell.
Heard of all them. . . I must of been sick the day we talked about that paine guy. . Funny thing is I know who Nathaniel Bacon was and a lot of people don't. . .
Well I will Honor Einsteins wishes with respect and label him Neither Creationist nor Atheist. . . Out of respect for the mans memory you should do the same.
A recently released private letter written by Einstein a year before he died, proves he was an atheist.
To: ame_chan From: joseph1949
Hell for me is where I could not eat any meat and/or where you are!!!
They were athiests, or diests at most. They certainly were not practicing christians.
As was Einstein.
rneal, you seem to be conflating what I said about Einstein with what I said about the founding fathers.
Most people have only ever heard of Nathaniel's great great great great grandson, Kevin.
lol, it was supposed to be a joke. 4 greats makes 6 degrees of separation.
Lol . . . Joseph, Your a piece of work. . . let us have our fun.
wow jazlovestoskate, "dont be stupid"? reallly???
Ok where are the super vocal Atheist?
I figured you were. . .
Are they related?