do you believe in God? if you do why? and were you taught to by your parents? if you don't why?
Toadaly had asked if I could provied verification for the claims that were made at Lourdes, because he could not find anything about them. This is the link for the official website of Lourdes. The list of miracles is under the heading of "cures and miracles" and the link for the list is called "the cures of Lourdes."
In response to nlocnil:
You asked if it was possible if the saints were intentionally preserved, because this phenomenon is "common" among saints.
I say no for 4 reasons. First, not all of the saints were known to be saints at the time of their respective deaths, so it is not plausible to suppose that they have been intentionally preserved.
2nd: For some of these saints, incorruptibility was one of the two mirales used for their canonization. That means, by definition, that the verified miracle must not be explanable by scientific means.
3rd, there is no known method of preservation that could preserve bodies for the length of time that the incorruptibles have been preserved for. There are some bodies that are preserved from early in the first millenium, (over 1500 years ago.) They include, St. Agnes, St. Agatha, and St. Sylvan (and St. Anthony of Padua's tongue!... just his tongue for some reason).
4th: The bodies have been preserved better than any method that is scientifically plausible. Several of my friends went to Navarre, France to see St. Bernadette's body (the same Bernadette of the visions at Lourdes). They said that she looks like she's about to wake up any minute. Her skin is still supple; her cheeks are still rosy; one on theme said that he held up his hand in front of her face and he could see its reflection from the tears that are still on her eyeball. She died over 100 years ago. There's no way that that should be scientifically possible, and yet it happens.
While we are on the subject of Lourdes, yes I do know what Lourdes was about. In 1858, a girl, Bernadette Soubirous, claimed to see a Lady in the Grotto there.
Unlike the claim that has been made, no one believed that it was the Blessed Virgin (not even St. Bernadette.) It was only after the investigation of the healing of the Spring that the Church confirmed the visions. Only then did the Lady reveal who she was, but she didn't say her name.
She said, "I am the Immaculate Conception." Bernadette repeated those words to herself over and over again as she traveled to see the Chruch authorities. She repeated the words to them and they understood what that meant. Bernadette herself did not know what the term "Immaculate Conception" meant.
The Church had officially confirmed the dogma of the Immaculate Conception earlier that year (the doctrine that Mary was concieved Immaculatley within her mother's womb; ie she was conceived without "original sin"). Bernadette was ignorant of the recent declaration (she was also notoriously "stupid").
As far as the claim that Lourdes is a business: it does not cost anything to get to the shrine at Lourdes. I have several friends who just got back who were actually volunteers to help people at the spring.
It has been said that anything could be claimed to be "linked to Lourdes." While it is true that anything could be claimed, the only ones that are "verified" are the ones who have had physical contact with the water from the spring.
It has also been said: "There are thousands of people who claim God healed them. Why would God only pick people subject to spontaneous remission, or misdiagnosis or in other words, conditions that would have healed on their own? And why aren't amputees ever healed?"
The answer: God didn't only pick people who have conditions that are likely to be healed on their own. I agree that spontaneous remission does occur, but there are more miracles than just spontaneous remission. The first miracle on the list has to do with the cure of a deformity. And I know of at least one miracle for an amputee (You'll find it in Luke 22:50-51).
God exists because he said he does! Whether I believe that or not, makes absolutely no difference. My careless unbelief does not change the God of the Universe, who has been there for all time and place. If I make a (.) and extend the left and right arrows appropriately on both sides of the dot, I will not ever be able to extend those arrows to a time when God did not exist; conversely, I will not be able to extend the arrows to the right to a time when he will not exist. It is just impossible to do. He has always been and he will always be.
God chose to make a family and he did it in the Garden of Eden according to Genesis. He wanted a family who would choose to follow him, visit with him, and enjoy the creation which he provided for them. An unruly/sinful angel named Lucifer overly persuaded a serpent to use his body for a while and gave the woman and man an opportunity to sin and they were not wise to his deception and therefore man has suffered a separation from God, which only Jesus Christ coming to earth could change. Jesus came, made the sin of the man Adam right, by offering himself a complete sacrifice for that sin (and all others ever to be committed by mankind). Now, for those who find the Christ, as presented in the scriptures, there is an opportunity to come back into relationship with the God of Heaven. It is a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to get to know and see God. For that is the way that we get to know him is through the man Jesus Christ.
I would not want to live one day without listening to his direction. Either through listening to his Word, or through listening to the still small voice of the Holy Spirit who lives in my life. I cannot tell you how many times that still small voice has saved me from catastrophe, accident; and on many occasions, He has saved my life!!! The number of times before I reached my tenth birthday (that I know myself) is 5 times.
Have you been privileged to see your angel? His word says that they are guardians for those who will be heirs of salvation. I remember one time when I was really frightened and very alone. I was adjusting to the loss of my grandfather, who had just gone on to heaven, and I prayed that the Lord would comfort me with the assurance that I was not alone. For a moment in time, I could see the very angel's person which watched over my rest and whose comforting presence allowed me to relax. I have never felt alone or afraid on this place ever again.
Even though I know a life in heaven in promised to believers who make Jesus, Lord over all their life, just knowing that his Holy Spirit is living in my heart is a comfort. And I know that God is in the whole earth, because there is no place that we can go in the area above the earth, on the earth or under the earth that He is not there. We can not flee nor hide from his presence. How very foolish we are to think that we do things that He does not see and that we can hide our activities from him.
It is my prayer that those who may read these words will consider that God is bigger than anything our human minds can comprehend, but He is small enough that he can come and live in our hearts, if we will only invite him. In Revelations he says, "Behold, I stand at the door and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come into him, and will sup with him and he with me." There is no greater invitation that has ever been extended to anyone. May God bless you, is my prayer.
Yes, Jump4joy55, I believe that only the Supreme being of the Universe could have established and set in order the world that we enjoy. It is not perfect as it was in Eden, but still you can see the order and planning that he used to establish the perfect place for his man Adam.
And yes, I suppose that I knew and believed in Him long before the formal trip to the altar when I was 12 years old. I suddenly realized one night that I had never gone forward; I was later baptised of course. I always loved studying and exploring the Scriptures; it is like that I was born to get to know him just as surely as the sun gives light and power to our world. My grandparents did not believe in suggesting that it was time for me to be born again. They simply provided opportunities to get to know the Supreme Being of the Universe and his Heir Apparent Jesus, who is the Christ. I loved digging into the Word of God and taking it into my heart and mind. I must say that I have never been disappointed studying His Word directed to me; and it is new day by day. I must say that the Holy Spirit shares tidbits with me and I get so excited and share them with my friends.
I listen to it as I travel to and from school everyday. I enjoy a wonderful Christian radio station locally, with a perfect blend of praise music and teaching skillfully interwoven together. I study on my own of course, usually with a daily devotional. But let me not leave out the study books that use all the time as well. I just finished the last book in the Left Behind series, which is centered around the Millenial Kingdom, when Jesus rules from Jerusalem and King David administers the kingdom's business. It was a truly wonderful picture. But I am also reading a book on Leadership, by Dr. John Maxwell and making good use of my time while continuing to study and grow in the scriptures. I am reading the biography of John by Beth Moore. She is a wonderful writer. Dr. Maxwell is so annointed to teach us the equipping of the saints for leadership.
I never believe in pushing children to do things which they are not ready for. I do believe in offering many opportunities for children to get together with the Word skillfully taught by young men and women who are young at heart and have a child centered program to pull the child to Christ. There is a Christian song which states:
"I catch 'em, God cleans 'em." And that I truly believe is the answer. From the time I was 18-36 I ministered in the summer Bible camp program and God truly had a large net to scoop many out of the water and bring them into the kingdom.
Many I have known have come to the Lord at a young age...say 5 or 6. These were exceptionally tender plants and God does do the ministry. And there were many others of all ages who came to know Him. Let me say that I have had to pray for the Lord to keep spiders the size of 10" plates in the tops of cabins; I have had to pray for safety among teenagers who were horsing around in the lake; I have been drinched from several over turned canoes, as well as had my share of sun poisoning during this period. And I would not change it. God changed lives and that is what is most important for eternity.
Let everyone say "Amen."
Yes, I believe in God with all my heart, mind, soul and strength. Nothing could ever persuade me differently. God is alive and well in my heart, he has cleaned up my mind, and my soul, delivering me of things that to him are sin. Lust, smoking, alcohol consumption, unfaitfulness, pornography, unforgiveness, lack of caring, lack of involvement, and I could probably go on and on. My life is a 180 over the way I lived before Christ came into my life.
If you are ever priviledged to encounter him for real, you will be forever changed. No amount of foolish arguement will ever have any effect upon you, other than to cause you to feel sorry for the ones that have not yet, experienced him for real.
It will lead you to pray sincerely for every unsaved believer upon the face of the earth. It will cause you to turn the other check, and to go the second mile. It will cause you to love the unloveable, and to get down in the trenches, with the fallen.
It will enlargen your heart to the point, that you have empathy for everyone, including those who fight the message the most. It will cause you to hate the sin, and love the sinner. It will cause you to turn from your pursuit of earthly pleasures, to spending your time, in a way that is productive to the Kingdom.
It will cause you to give until it hurts, and never regret it. It will make you see life in a way you never believed possible. You will have a love for the bible, like you never believed, and you will feel a kindred spirit with all that have come before you. You will wonder if some of your ancestors could possibly have been Jewish. Relishing the thought of being grafted in, however, desiring closer roots.
The love that God will plant in your heart, will grow and grow and grow. It will start small, like a mustard seed, and eventually grow into a huge tree, that has very large branches, and deep deep roots, that go way down, where the underground springs are, causing it to never lack for nourishment, causing it to flurish, while others flounder around it.
It will cause you to do what ever you are asked to do, by him that loved you so. It will cause you to sleep at night, the sleep of a contented person. You will no longer be afraid of what man can do to you. Gradually every fear that you once had, will fall by the wayside, as the love inside you grows to maturity. You will love to share with anyone willing to listen. No job will be beneath you, if it furthers the Kingdom.
You will find gratefulness growing in your heart, and you will hurt when other hurt. You will feel their pain. And if there is anything that you can do to relieve that pain, you will endeavor to do. You will truly become, like the one who called you. Your life will take on his attributes.
Once you experience his presence, you will long for nothing more.
You will then begin to understand why others before you choose to die, rather than turn their back on him. Some were beheaded because of him. Some were boiled in oil. Some were crucified upside down. Some were stoned to death. Some were thrown to the lions and wild beasts to be devoured. Some were thrown into the fiery furnace.
This is the heritage of the believers. And yes, I am very proud to be one.
Nothing finite can be infinite (eternal). Since the universe is made of finite things (matter, time, space), it therefor must be created by something without time (timeless), thus making it eternal. If it is eternal, it must be infinite, and if its the Creator, it must be God.
The universe changes, and time is the measure of change. How many changes have happened before right now? If you claim an infinite number of changes (which is impossible because you can not have an infinite amount of finite things), it is a logically impossible to conclude we could ever have reached this moment in time. In a world of cause and effect (which we live in), there can not be an infinite regress (an infinite amount of cause and effect reactions to get to a certain cause).
Allow me to rephrase. Imagine that the Earth orbits the sun every 365 days (it does). Now, on Mars, a year is much longer than an Earth year, being 687 Earth days (basically double). So, for every 2 years of Mars, Earth has circled the sun approximately 4 times. Now, imagine that this has been going on for eternity. By your logic, they would both have circled the sun the exact same amount of times, because its been going on forever (this is clearly impossible). This shows the impossibility of an infinite regress, whereby there could not have been an infinite amount of (x) before right now, in a finite universe based on time.
Now, back to God. God exists outside of time, in Eternity. God created time, and time is irrelevant to Him. God is Eternal, not created. Firstly, you have 2 choices; either everything came from nothing (which is impossible), or something always existed and created us. You have no other choice. Take a moment to think about that, remembering that it can not exist in time, that would be impossible. Time can not be eternal.
This thing that always existed would be considered Eternal, having transcended time, space, and matter, being everlasting, having always existed. If you argue this is impossible, I would argue the contrary; it is impossible for this Eternal 'thing' to not exist, because the alternative is that nothing existed, which could only produce nothing. So, something always existed, and is therefor Eternal.
Now, for something to be Eternal, it can not consist of time, because time must have had a beginning. We exist in a universe of causality, so an infinite regress is impossible; there could not have been an infinite amount of time before right now, because we never would have reached this moment in time. That means time had a beginning, and whatever created time exists without time, beyond time, in timelessness; Eternity.
So, this Eternal Creator, created time, and the universe. This Eternal Creator clearly is extremely powerful, because the energy of the trillions of stars in the known universe were created by this Creator. And obviously, the Creator is extremely intelligent, having created an intelligent being such as mankind and a world in which to populate with it.
As regards the miracles at Lords and other places:
The Church's requirement for a miracle is that it MUST be unexplainable by scientific means. The miracles verified at Lourdes that the Church recognizes are the sort where people are literally missing internal organs and they miraculously grow back after washing in water from the spring (or drinking it).
There are over 50 verified miracles from the spring at Lourdes since 1858. Whether or not this number is in keeping with the rate of "spontaneous healings" I cannot say. But I do know that these are not explainable using the natural sciences.
In my opinion, the more immpressive miracles are the Eucharistic miracles, like the one at Lanciano, Italy. It occured in the 9th century AD. For those of you not familiar with it, I will briefly recap.
A priest was having doubts about the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist. (As Catholics, we believe that the bread and wine are "Changed in substance" at the mass, and they become the "Body, blood, soul, and Divinity, of Jesus Christ.") When this priest said the words of consecration, the host began to bleed, the the bread that was in his hands turned into bloody vlesh.
That host and the bloody altar cloth have been preserved, and are currently at the Shrine in Lanciano, Italy. In the 1970s, scientists were permitted to examine the host, and do tests on it. They found that it is, in fact, human cardiac (heart) tissue. This is one of the many Eucharistic miracles that have occured over the course of the centuries.
nlocnil: you have said that miracles do not prove the existence of God. I submit to you that they are the criteria that Christ himself told us to judge by. )"The works that I do bear witness to me" (John 10:25).) I think that anything that can produce a verified miracle is worth a second look.
As far as the incorruptibles (preserved saints) are concerned: they did not preserve themselves, so it is not a "selfish miracle." All of the power that the saints have comes from God, and we confess that their preservation is an act of the Holy Spirit, that he performed in order to bear witness to God's existence, and the fact that the words and deeds that those saints did, they did not do on their own, but rather, they were submitting themselves to the divine will and doing the works that God instructed them to do, and they did by their great faith (both belief and "faithfulness) to him and in him.
I believe in God, but I was raised wiccan. I didn't accept Jesus as my Savior until I was 16. I believe in Him for a few reasons, mostly having to do with prayer.
1. When I am praying, I always feel like He is there listening.
2. In our church nobody is about to pressure you to tythe, even though we are not a rich church, and for years I didn't or I only put in a few dollars, but last summer I made a commitment that even though we were poorer than ever before I would give my full 10%. I don't know why I did it, I just did. Anywho, within two weeks of beginning to faithfully pay those tythes, something amazing began to happen. People came out of the woodwork willing to help us, many of them non Christians, or Christians from differnt churches, and my husband who had been searching for work for months and finally found a job.
3. I have seen more miracles from the Bible prooven in the years since I became a Christian than I can count.
4. There is no proof, whatsoever that He does not exist
5. If I pray for something, even if it is not answered the way I wanted, I ALWAYS get an answer.
6. Read the bible abd then look at the world events throughout time. You will see a corelation between the two, that athiests explain away as pure coincidence.
7. I have Faith!
8.Because I believe there is more to us than microorganisms or whatever it is that people say made us.
9. If God did not exist, would we be having this conversation?
10. The big bang has been explained away as nothing more than science, until you remember that they still aren't sure what started it. All science does is explain the works of God
11. I believe we are more than just animals. I believe we do have souls, contrary to what others may think, and if we did not have souls, we would not be "the dominant speices" also God's work- because he put us in charge. Us not having souls has not been scientifically prooven
12. Because I understand that the word which was translated to Day in the beginning of the bible actually meant periods of time. Which gives a logical explanation for the fact that the earth is older than a few billion years.
13. Because there is no logical explanatin found anywhere else than can back up a defense to ALL of these claims.
14. I reiterate FAITH!
By the way, these are not the only reasons I believe, just the ones I had time to write about
I suggest looking into the reports on the miracles at Lourdes before making the claim that they can be explained by psychology. It is immpossible for Psychology to allow a person with severe damage to the cornea to see with 20/20 vision. It is also immpossible to spontaneously regrow internal organs as far as I know. My understanding is that the miracles required for declaring sainthood must have had multiple opinions before the miracle healings, and that the evidence required for an unexplainable healing must be incontrovertable. I suggest looking into the official process for the canonization, as well as the miracles that have been validated in the actual canonization of the saints.
As far as the sign of Jonah is concerned, it was a statment about the Pharisees refusal to believe what they had already seen. Christ had already performed signs and miracles in the synagogues in the presence of those who denounced him (see Matthew chapters 8-11). Later on, after they had seen the miracles, they called him evil, and they demanded a sign, which Jesus said would come with the Ressurection (Matthew 12:22-42). From that point on, he teaches only in parables.
I don't believe in "god" becuase he is not real. It's not because of my parents beliefs (though they are athiest and buddhist) that I do not believe in god. Infact, I thought I was christian until I realized that what I was hearing from people who are religious made absulutly no sence. There is no god, nothing as great as the univirse could be produced by a simple human being becuase nobody has magical powers no matter what. I always ask myself... "why do people believe in god?" my conclusion is always about the same... either their belief in god began becuase their parents taught them to believe in him or they believe in him becuase they feel it's comforting. I know that there is no such thing as god because the whole concept it just make believe. Look at the religion of the greeks, the spartans, the mayans, etc... don't their religions sound like complete B.S.? I feel the same way about the christian religion... and most other religions, for that matter. But, nomatter what you believe, I will not judge you. I will only feel sorry for you because you can't see the world without "god" in it.
Yes, I believe in God. I was raised a lot of different ways, and in a lot of different families. My belief in Him came from myself, and the proof I have been given by Him. My fiancee and I had two miscarriages, and I have had two before I was with him. After three miscarriages, I didn't think I could handle another one. I prayed nightly, there was nothing else I could do. Doctors couldn't help us. It was the last place I turned, but now I know it should have been the first.
Before my last miscarried baby passed I got pregnant. You can't find an explanation to that on the internet, or from our doctors. We didn't have sex for a week before it passed, and about two weeks after. My date of conception is before Nov 20, the day the baby passed. How do you get pregnant while you're already pregnant? I know how. God gave me my little miracle, now I'm 16 weeks, and the farthest I have ever made it. If it wasn't God that did it for me, Who was it?
I do believe in God.
One of the major reasons that I believe is because of Scientifically verified miracles, such as the healing power of the Spring in Lourdes France, the miracles involved in the canonization of Padre Pio, the Eucharistic miracles such as the one at Lanciano, Italy, and the incorruptibles such as St. Bernadette (These were saints that have been dead for centuries, but their bodies have never decomposed).
The miracle aren't the only reason, but they are a major one. I also recognize the logic of the Gospel message and the profound teachings of the Church throughout the centuries. It all makes too much sense.
The most important reason is because the Holy Spirit has worked in my life to put me in a posititon where I can believe. Faith is a gift. Please pray for me. I will be praying for all of you.
In the list of miracles, I see two related to blindness. One of those is stated to be of cerebral origin, and the other was in a 3 year old with unknown cause. Natural healing from blindness is not unheard of, depending on the cause. I couldn't find anything documenting the rate at which it happens.
I don't see any regrown internal organs anywhere in the list.
Of course, the problem with all these, is that none of them are incontrovertible. Here's an interesting article about Lourdes from the 1873 NY Times when Lourdes was first being popularized.
I was curious. I am sort of grappling with the fact that I do not believe. Atheists get such a bad wrap and people are often turned off by their views, once they here you do not believe. I want to write a book and I want to address this topic and I am pretty positive people will be offended and turned off without giving me a chance due to the fact that I do not believe. Also I think there are a lot of people who claim they believe just so they won't have to deal with people coming down on them so hard. Kind of like someone coming out of the closet, declaring atheism to family members can be a taboo and hurtful experience, it can also be very freeing.
do you believe in God? if you do why? and were you taught to by your parents? if you don't why?
do you believe in God?
if you do why?
--because OF ALL THE WONDERFUL THINGS HE HAS DONE FOR ME AND HOW MUCH HE LOVES ME
and were you taught to by your parents?
--YES,, I WAS TAUGHT BY THEM BUT I DIDNT BELIEVE JUST CAUSE OF THEM I FALLOW WHAT I BELIEVE IS RIGHT
if you don't why?
--I WILL BE HONEST I HAVE QUESTINED IT BUT THE THINGS THAT HAVE HAPPENED IN MY LIFE AND TO MY FAMILY ARE ONLY FROM GOD NONE OTHER
*** "There are over 50 verified miracles from the spring at Lourdes since 1858. Whether or not this number is in keeping with the rate of 'spontaneous healings' I cannot say. But I do know that these are not explainable using the natural sciences."
Of course they're explainable through natural sciences, as long as you include psychology in the list as well as allowing for misdiagnosis, which happens quite frequently.
I couldn't add a thing! Way to go flossheal, silverwings, callmefaithful, torikeene, and all the rest who say YES with all their heart, mind, soul, and strength.
I'm sure that I can add that not only do we believe in God, we believe Him!
Bless you as you find truth. Seek Him with all your heart and you shall find Him.
"Draw near to God and He will draw near to you..." James 4:8
I dont. But whatever makes you try to be a better person, is perfectly fine with me.
If that means you have to believe in God, Jesus, Buddha, Allah, etc., to be a good morale person, believe in it!
Those of us who dont believe, as long as were trying our best too, thats just as good. Besides, as long as we all know "something" is out there greater than us,
everything is good :]
no I dont believe in God.
I was raised a Chirstian.
not in a strict way, but church 1x per wk and praying before bed sorta thing.
all the things that have happened in my life and to people I know...there can't be a God.
I agree with what TOADALY said.
I don't believe in things like the toothfairy and leprecauns either.
there's no proof.
I do. My mum and grandparents taught me Bible stories and suchlike, so I suppose I believed in a passive way for a long time. My faith became active and personal when I was 18, and 'gave my life to Jesus' as they say. I still believe in Him because, basically, that worked. Living my life for Jesus is still what makes me tick, twenty years on.
*** "One of the major reasons that I believe is because of Scientifically verified miracles, such as the healing power of the Spring in Lourdes France"
The rate of spontaneous healings at Lourdes has been shown to be no different than the rate of spontaneous healings in general. Even the Catholic church admits this.
I believe in GOD, I was once a pagan but now the lord has saved me, my mother is a christian while my father is still a pagan but I believe one day he will call my father too.christianity is interesting just join us.please devil is controlling people in africa but jesus came to redeerm us from him
yes, but it is a very different view than most people have
there's no proof, I just believe (btw I also believe in evolution and the big bang theory)
and my parents do believe, but theirs is a more traditional belief... so my views dont really come from them
Jonah who was swallowed up in the belly of the whale and on the third day was spit out of the whale alive, sign of Jonah? Same as Jesus who died for our sins, carried them all to hell, rose again defeating death for us, sign of Jonah?
So you claim someone regrew an internal organ at Lourdes and you claim someone miraculously regained their vision. Can you corroborate these claims? I couldn't find anything about them .
I believe in GOD and the reason why is because I know that he is real and yes I was raised in family that believes in him and I am glad of that and I just know that he is real!:)
No, I don't personally, I respect any religion who does, but as for me I don't. I was raised mormon and have since changed atheist. I find no proof god exists or
By the way, the concept of miracles as a sign goes directly against what Jesus is purported to have said when he said the only sign we would receive is 'the sign of jonah'.
No, I don't believe in God even though I was taught to by my family and my church. I can't find any evidence that any gods are real.
I don't believe in any gods for the same reason I don't believe in leprechauns or unicorns. It's not very complicated really.
Nope I don't believe in God, there's no reason for me to. And there's so much evidence against god/religious beliefs.
Im a child of seven and none of us believe in god. but our parents sorta do but dont pray /go to church
I don't believe in god. I mean come on... it doesnt seem likely