If God doesn't exist then where did he come from? It seems to me that humans being the power hungry things we are wouldn't create a god to explain things. the cedit would have been ours alone. we wouldn't create something that we had to bow down to. I guess my question really is: How can there not be a God?
If God Created Everything, Who Created God?
by Rich Deem
IntroductionHow did God get here?
Richard Dawkins, among other atheists, thinks he has the ultimate proof that God doesn't exist. If God created a complex universe, wouldn't it take an even more complex entity to have created God? However, such logic assumes that time has always existed, rather than being merely a construct of this universe.
Who created God? It is an age-old question that has plagued all those who like to think about the big questions. Having grown up as an agnostic non-Christian, it provided me with a potential reason why there might not be any god. Various religions tend to solve the problem in different ways. The LDS church (Mormonism) says that the God (Elohim) to whom we are accountable had a father god, then grew up on a planet as a man, and progressed to become a god himself. Many other religions have claimed that gods beget other gods. Of course the problem with this idea is how did the first god get here? This problem of infinite regression invalidates such religions. Christianity claims that God has always existed. Is this idea even possible? Does science address such issues?
Christianity's answerChristianity answers the question of who created God in the very first verse of the very first book, Genesis:
In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth (Genesis 1:1)
This verse tells us that God was acting before time when He created the universe. Many other verses from the New Testament tells us that God was acting before time began, and so, He created time, along with the other dimensions of our universe:
No, we speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. (1 Corinthians 2:7)
This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time (2 Timothy 1:9)
The hope of eternal life, which God... promised before the beginning of time (Titus 1:2)
To the only God our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion and authority, before all time and now and forever. Amen. (Jude 1:25)
The idea that God created time, along with the physical universe, is not just some wacky modern Christian interpretation of the Bible. Justin Martyr, a second century Christian apologist, in his Hortatory Address to the Greeks, said that Plato got the idea that time was created along with the universe from Moses:
"And from what source did Plato draw the information that time was created along with the heavens? For he wrote thus: “Time, accordingly, was created along with the heavens; in order that, coming into being together, they might also be together dissolved, if ever their dissolution should take place.” Had he not learned this from the divine history of Moses?"1
God exists in timeless eternityHow does God acting before time began get around the problem of God's creation? There are two possible interpretations of these verses. One is that God exists outside of time. Since we live in a universe of cause and effect, we naturally assume that this is the only way in which any kind of existence can function. However, the premise is false. Without the dimension of time, there is no cause and effect, and all things that could exist in such a realm would have no need of being caused, but would have always existed. Therefore, God has no need of being created, but, in fact, created the time dimension of our universe specifically for a reason - so that cause and effect would exist for us. However, since God created time, cause and effect would never apply to His existence.
God exists in multiple dimension of timeThe second interpretation is that God exists in more than one dimension of time. Things that exist in one dimension of time are restricted to time's arrow and are confined to cause and effect. However, two dimensions of time form a plane of time, which has no beginning and no end and is not restricted to any single direction. A being that exists in at least two dimension of time can travel anywhere in time and yet never had a beginning, since a plane of time has no starting point. Either interpretation leads one to the conclusion that God has no need of having been created.
Why can't the universe be eternal?The idea that God can be eternal leads us to the idea that maybe the universe is eternal, and, therefore, God doesn't need to exist at all. Actually, this was the prevalent belief of atheists before the observational data of the 20th century strongly refuted the idea that the universe was eternal. This fact presented a big dilemma for atheists, since a non-eternal universe implied that it must have been caused. Maybe Genesis 1:1 was correct! Not to be dismayed by the facts, atheists have invented some metaphysical "science" that attempt to explain away the existence of God. Hence, most atheistic cosmologists believe that we see only the visible part of a much larger "multiverse" that randomly spews out universes with different physical parameters.2 Since there is no evidence supporting this idea (nor can there be, according to the laws of the universe), it is really just a substitute "god" for atheists. And, since this "god" is non-intelligent by definition, it requires a complex hypothesis, which would be ruled out if we use Occam's razor, which states that one should use the simplest logical explanation for any phenomenon. Purposeful intelligent design of the universe makes much more sense, especially based upon what we know about the design of the universe.
What does science say about time?When Stephen Hawking, George Ellis, and Roger Penrose extended the equations for general relativity to include space and time, the results showed that time has a beginning - at the moment of creation (I.e., the Big Bang).3 In fact, if you examine university websites, you will find that many professors make such a claim - that the universe had a beginning and that this beginning marked the beginning of time (see The Universe is Not Eternal, But Had A Beginning). Such assertions support the Bible's claim that time began at the creation of the universe.
Conclusion God has no need to have been created, since He exists either outside time (where cause and effect do not operate) or within multiple dimensions of time (such that there is no beginning of God's plane of time). Hence God is eternal, having never been created. Although it is possible that the universe itself is eternal, eliminating the need for its creation, observational evidence contradicts this hypothesis, since the universe began to exist a finite ~13.7 billion years ago. The only possible escape for the atheist is the invention of a kind of super universe, which can never be confirmed experimentally (hence it is metaphysical in nature, and not scientific).
This is from Rich Deem at godandscience.org. He is a former agnostic non-christian. You can read about him and the site at that site, and untill you do, don't even bother with this sad attempt at a debate. I will write more and happily debate you if you at least give this site a chance.
"how can something simple, like a single cell gradually turn into an atom?"
Just when I thought people couldn't get any dumber
A cell can't become an atom less time rewound.
Atoms are the building blocks that creates the cell genius
& as arachnid stated "big bang theory explains the early development of the universe, not the actual moment at which it began"
Not to mention, it's NOT the only theory. Look up the Claps theory, it might make more since to you. Two parallel universes collided & created this universe, the ripples being the clumps of matter.
& it's simple, a mixture of survival of the fittest & viruses.
If you want evidence, go to the Galapagos islands, or simply look at how many lizards are becoming snakes.
God created every separate animal with its own set of genetics. besides, how could an animal (monkey, in this case) that can't speak, have the ability to reason, or remember things besides basic survival skills turn into man?
What evidence do you have that God created everything?
& Actually, animals are more intelligent then you think. No, they can't speak our language, but they have their own way of communication in which we understand very little. & They do have more than basic survival skill, they play, have fun, relax, just like humans, just without all the high-tech.
"you dont have the right to tell me im wrong if you dont have a clear answer yourself."
One, no-one is straight up telling you you're wrong. It's a sight in which people partake in debate, if you don't like it, get the hell off & shut-up..
Two) look whose talking about not being clear? It seems to me you've not the slightest idea of what you're talking about. We've provided clear enough answers. You just simply lack the capacity to grasp. Do some research or seomthing. Or rather go back to school & actually pay attention to twords coming out of the teachers mouth, you might learn something.
I myself believe in God, I'm catholic but I often don't go to church I kuss, so I'm like a normal person.
In my opinion.. I don't think anyone wants to figure out there isn't a God, like if some mystic being from the past came to all of us in our dreams and told us we were living a lie, there was no God
what would people do the next day?
everything they've been living for nothing - They work to please God and be good in their everyday lives - no more God
People would go crazy - the theory of God and the idea of being scared *ahem* poopless off him, Keeps people in check, "I'm not going to steal that because im going to have to pay for it when I meet the big guy"
"I'm not going to chop my wifes finger tips off and eat them because thats really sick, and I want to go to heaven when I die"
God keeps everyone in check, the image of God and what he does for us keeps our minds at ease, I myself wouldn't be able to handle the thought of their being no god, because I pray to him.. a lot. Even if he's not there no one should know, people should continue on, you only get one life, dont waste it trying to figure out when it ends is there going to be some big golden gate with all your dead relatives being there
Just live your life, forget about the whole Who created God, Is there even a God, Where do I go when I die.. Just live :)
That made no since.
& orginally the Gods were just something to believe in to as kfor help, not something to bow down to.
Theory has it that the Goddess was first to develop. Women were able to bleed each month & heal, & give birth. This man see as an amazing mysterious feat. The God came from the hunt when men dressed in animal hides to go hunting. The earliest of Gods are thus half human & half man. Originally the God were a deity that man asked to aid them in their every day lives or something that took charge of something(for instance, Anubis -God of Death, Poseidon -Ruler of seas, Diana - Goddess of the hunt, Loki -God of Chaos, Mars/Aries- God of war) & explain natural occurrences, & something that aided them in everyday life, not something to bow down to & worship.
& As for humans not making something to bow down & worship, they made kings, zars(sp?), & all different types of rulers, why would a God be any different???
Oh, another thing, supposedly all other Gods are man made other than the bible's, how can you say for sure isn't as well? He's just as hatful, spiteful, & self centered as humans, which should serve as a little hint hint, he's man made.
***Take a broken watch with all the parts torn apart, and place them in a box. Close the lid and shake it one time really hard. Open the box.***
Ugh... the broken watch is a broken record, the analogy always omits a MAJOR factor in the concept of evolution: TIME. Try shaking the watch for BILLIONS of years, and see what happens. Don't forget to add severe climate shift, erupting volcanoes, earthquakes, meteor strikes, chaotic atmospheric pressure, etc.
The concept of evolution is clearly beyond your comprehension. Probably because it has been presented to you in a totally unbelievable format, by people who want you to remain ignorant. You could always research it for yourself, objectively, but what are the chances of that happening?
***how can something simple, like a single cell gradually turn into an atom?***
...they can't, because cells are exponentially larger than atoms... you got it backwards. And you left out parts of the sequence: sub-atomic particles, molecules, proteins, etc.
Once again, the concept is beyond your comprehension. But that doesn't mean you can't IMPROVE your comprehension.
"can you prove there WAS an explosion?"
Actually, the (somewhat misnamed) big bang theory explains the early development of the universe, not the actual moment at which it began. And all cosmological evidence points to it beginning approximately 14 billion years ago.
"Take a broken watch with all the parts torn apart, and place them in a box. Close the lid and shake it one time really hard. Open the box."
First, you're using a well worn and many times refuted argument against _evolution_, not the big bang. It doesn't even make sense in the context of the big bang.
Second, as I mentioned, this argument has been refuted over and over. Evolution does not claim that complex structures sprang into existence out of basic building blocks - it shows how simple structures gradually developed into more complex ones through random mutation and natural selection.
"Look around you. was there really a huge explosion and everything came to be? has there really been millions and millions of years for the earth to turn itself into what it is now?"
"Scientists have done the research to find out that earth is not more than several thousand years old. "
No they haven't. Crackpots have made claims to that effect, though.
"It is an impossible thing to wrap your mind around, which God intended for it to be."
Isn't that kind of perverse of her?
Consider that the modern idea of an all powerful creator god is no older than a few thousand years. Prior to that, the various gods were viewed more like super humans living in the sky with specialized powers to control nature, destiny, love, or whatever.
The modern idea of god is the product of human minds, but it was not invented in its current form. It evolved over time, mostly at the hands of priests who get bigger collections the bigger they make god.
Where's the 'simple' answer?
***You can read about him and the site at that site, and untill you do, don't even bother with this sad attempt at a debate. I will write more and happily debate you if you at least give this site a chance.***
If you can only cut & paste excerpts from sujective websites, no one will take you seriously. Subjective conclusions reagrding unprovable characters or criteria... are just opinions, nothing more.
***It seems to me that humans being the power hungry things we are wouldn't create a god to explain things.***
...why not? Make people think there's a almighty ethereal being that created the universe watching over them, then claim that he's speaking through YOU. Then you can start telling people how to live their lives, and they'll face eternal flaming punishment if they don't follow your orders.
My elderly neighbour told me that there are leprechauns in my garden (we live in Ireland after all). She seemed a bit afraid of them...
Now... you might say: 'Go way with ye, leprechauns do not exist, mind you!'.
But I would say: 'If leprechauns do not exist then where do they come from?'
(Oh, by the way... if God exists, indeed, who created God?).
Not only have all of you gotten off topic, but this entire subject seems to beyond all of your comprehension. I have studied science for many years, almost all of my life. You all seem like you haven't a clue as to what you are saying. I am going to post a simple answer to this question. Do you think you can handle that. Then we can get into evolution.
~~~GOD never created he is GOD that is all can't understand thats why he's GOD he's above human understanding~~~
Agreed with captainassasin
plus, space has always been, space was always there
if you can believe in some whismical being, why can't you believe the substance for life was always there?
What? Read that first sentence again. It doesn't even make sense.
How can there not be a God? I could say 'How could there be one? It doesn't matter. No one knows and never will, that is, until maybe when they die and then they can't be answering questions like this.
"how can something simple, like a single cell gradually turn into an atom?"
Your responses indicate that you don't really understand how evolution works. How can you be so sure a theory is wrong when you don't even fully understand it?
Presumably if you don't think humans are creative enough to invent the idea of a god who doesn't exist, you must believe _all_ of the gods we've thought up really, exist, then. Which of the greek pantheon do you worship?
WHAT?!?! There cannot be a god because that's just ridiculous! There's a guy who lives in the clouds and when we die we're going to float up there and see him and meet up with our dead relatives? I don't think so...
Oh look, a lot of metaphysical babble that presents absolutely no evidence for its far-reaching claims, yet comes to exactly the conclusion its author wants it to come to. Convincing? No, not really.
***GOD never created he is GOD that is all can't understand thats why he's GOD he's above human understanding***
...then why are you trying to explain it?
Good question ! - God always has been, is, and always will be, despite all the whining, and stamping of feet...makes it no less true.
That's pretty circular reasoning, isn't it?
Since people are greedy, there must be a God...nope, it doesn't work for me, sorry.
There's no *god.
But the belief is so strong, it gives the name a reality...
know what I mean?
I dont think theres a way to explain cuzx god has been around for hundreds of years
God's been around since forever. There's really no way to explain it.
well said captain 1_~