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see, ive been thinking about this and have had many conversations (friendly and non argumentative) about god. one point that shows up again and again is that god is perfection because he does not sin. mankind is imperfect because we are prone to sin and its impossible for us to sin. what does it mean if god is a sinner though? god is prideful, greedy, and wrathful just to name a few sins. the christian god obviously is prideful and shouldn't need an explanation but ill give one. the reason i make this statement is because this man requires praise and shows a very condescending nature of placing us much lower than himself. although theoretically he would be above us, the very fact that he puts himself on a Pedestal shows pride which is oddly a sin. the next sin, "greed" is also evident. the sheer statement of "jealous god" can allow a logical inference about how god is not a distilled being. jealous is synonymous with envy; envy cannot be acquire without greed or a "lust" for greed, which helps make gods very existence a fallacy. the last sin that i feel he applies to is wrath. now wrath, this is the easiest to explain and even the most hard headed dogmatic cristian would have to agree that god epitomizes wrath. from plagues to ethnic cleansing and a hate for atheists and his explicit punishments for them, it is without a doubt the easiest sin to apply to the christian god. because of this, a whole taint is pushed into the idea of the christian god and creates a paradox that challenges the very existence of this god using its own words. so if the god is perfect, the bible is wrong and if the bible is wrong, then a christian might as well worshiped the flying spaghetti monster as it has less contradictions. if god is imperfect, then this disrupts the whole fundamental principle of christianity and the church of the flying spaghetti monster seems like a better option again. i do not mean to offend anybody so please don't become angry reading my idea as it is only an idea and we all are entitled to our own opinions. please just give me feedback relevant to this statement as to why it could be incorrect but please use logic rather than blind insults and rage towards me as it only makes whatever you are representing look bad. i respect theism although i am atheist but i also consider myself pantheistic with my interest is the cosmos in a poetic sense. im not try to shit on your beliefs but it feels like the whole system requires naivety. all in all, what do you think of this argument. is it valid?why or why not?
This idea of the Christian God makes no actual sense if you try to analyze it. God is omnipresent and omniscient and perfect. So, if God knows past, present and future, and God created satan (knowing he would rebel) and humans (knowing they would fall from Grace), then really whose fault is it that sin entered the world? God knew, before creating humans that they would do exactly what they did. So, either God's not all that perfect, or God is the reason sin came into the world (it's like creating a time bomb knowing the bomb will go off, and then stepping back and saying, nope, not my fault, time bomb had free will).
While we're on the subject, why did God lie about Adam dying from eating the fruit? A perfect God lies? "The Lord God took the man and put him in the garden of Eden to till it and keep it. And the Lord God commanded the man, ‘You may freely eat of every tree in the garden; but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall die.’" [Genesis 2:16-17 (NRSV)]. The guy lived for almost a millennia. "Thus all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years; and he died." [Genesis 5:5 (NRSV)]
Then we've got a jealous God. And aroused His jealousy with their graven images (Psalm 78:58). Or do we provoke the Lord to jealousy? (1 Corinthians 10:22). How does a perfect God become jealous? Why does God have human emotions anyways?
And then we've got a God who changes his mind. Why would a perfect being (who also remember is omniscient and therefore should know what he's going to do in the end anyways) change his mind? "When God saw what they did and how they turned from their evil ways, He had compassion and did not bring upon them the destruction He had threatened." (Jonah 3:10), “Then the LORD relented and did not bring on His people the disaster He had threatened.” Exodus 32:14
And he repents? Why would a God who knows the consequences of his actions, repent? Why exactly is a perfect being making mistakes (or having human emotions)? “The LORD was grieved that He had made man on the earth, and His heart was filled with pain”? (Genesis 6:6)
And then we have an angry God. As was pointed out, anger is not evil. But it is human. Odd for a perfect being to have human emotions "And the LORD heard the voice of your words, and was wroth, and sware, saying" (Deuteronomy 1:34).
He also apparently doesn't mind you going around and killing people he doesn't like (witches, people who dont listen to priests, fortunetellers homosexuals, cursing at your parents, believing in other religions/non believers)... "Whoever sacrifices to any god, except the Lord alone, shall be doomed" (Exodus 22:19 NAB), "You should not let a sorceress live." (Exodus 22:17 NAB) "A man or a woman who acts as a medium or fortuneteller shall be put to death by stoning; they have no one but themselves to blame for their death." (Leviticus 20:27 NAB) "A man or a woman who acts as a medium or fortuneteller shall be put to death by stoning; they have no one but themselves to blame for their death." (Leviticus 20:27 NAB), "They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman." (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB). Etc etc.
So God gets tired? A perfect being needs rest? "It [is] a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for [in] six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed." (Exodus 31:17)
And what sort of perfect being punishes the children for the sins of the father? So God isn't very just. (and apparently your great-grandchildren are screwed too) "You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me" (Exodus 20:5)
Now this could go on for a while. It is exceptionally easy to criticize this book mainly because it was written by a bunch of men living in the desert thousands of years ago, it isn't really historically accurate and it hasnt been updated to meet today's moral standards. Regardless, lets not throw out the baby with the bath water. There are some good stories in here. There are people who gather together and find solace, comfort, and friendship with others through the church. And at the end of the day who are we to dictate what religion people should or shouldnt follow. So what if it isnt real. So what if people have to interpret things in a way that makes sense to today's lifestyle and culture. People get a lot out of their churches. And whether you or I agree with the whole thing, whether it makes sense or not to you, they should be allowed to do what makes them happy as long as it is not interfering with the rights of anyone else (that's a whole other story and in those cases I hold back no punches).
I don't agree, to be honest. I'm not Christian, I'm not religious, I don't really care, but there's something off in there. I do go to a Catholic school, so I know my stuff. I'm required to. The first one: pride. Christians believe that while they need god, god doesn't need them. When they pray to him, they're usually asking for things, or it's their choice to just say things at him, but he doesn't ask for it. He's okay with answering prayers apparently, and listens, but he doesn't need the prayer and doesn't require it. Really, it's more like common courtesy, you wouldn't walk up to someone and just go, "DO THINGS FOR ME BECAUSE I KNOW YOU CAN." It's like, "Hey dude, I hear you can heal people. Well, because you're so nice and all, mind making my kid a little less blind?" Makes more sense, right? The Church is pretty much just explaining to people how to ask other people and/or non-people for things. Second, greed. First of all, jealousy and envy are not synonymous. The definitions have been skewed, the original fact was that jealousy is disliking others having what you have, and envy is the want of someone else's possessions. Second, I really don't know what your argument is there, could you put it differently? And lastly, wrath. Since you're sticking with Christian belief during your argument, I'll stick with Christian belief in mine: Christians believe that god gives free will. Ethnic cleansing, if you're talking about what I think you are, was a human decision, nothing to do with god's decisions, and god doesn't hate Atheists, or Buddhists, or whatever the heck else, and they're not explicit punishments. It's hell, purgatory, or heaven, and hell is simply a place without god, nothing more. The idea is that the people that chose to step away from god will create unlivable conditions for themselves. Again, human freewill.
I believe that god is wrathful if he was willing to wipe out his creation and smite those that do wrong. In noahs ark he wipes out everyone but noah and his family. If any human would do that, just wipe out an entire race it is a sin and you cant say he had the right to because the human race was terrible, thats like saying then a parent has the right to kill their child if the child is terrible. God killed his children. He got angry with them and anger is associated with wrath and anger is evil, if god can become anger he has evil in him which doesnt make him perfect because if he was perfect he wouldnt get mad. Also ive been taught that god loves the worship of his creation, which is pride. In my church we sing worship to god because he likes it. No god doesnt ask for peoples prays or for people to help him but praying to god, so ive been taught, is a key in keeping him in your heart. Anyways this could be argued back and forth never unendingly but i believe that people need a god, or a higher power to look to something as a crutch, to have hope things will get better instead of relying on them selves to get by.
Anger is not evil. Anger is human, Jesus was written to have felt angry, and even lashed out. You just said it yourself, "a key in keeping him in your heart." Not keeping you in his, but keeping him in yours, meaning pulling yourself close to him. When he did the whole Noah flood thing, I think it's more like a sculptor looking at his work, deciding is sucks, and mashing it up again. Insignificant little action, all it does is allow him to start over. And if you want to use the Christian argument, really, killing all those people was just bringing them up with him. They say god does everything for a reason: the bible says the Noah was the only pure man, meaning the rest were already godless, they already had created a hell for themselves in pleasures and in sins, and a godless earth is pointless. So mash it up, save the nose if you think that came out well, and stick it on the new sculpture. It's not that big of a deal. The end of what you wrote is true, but has absolutely nothing to do with this argument.
The idea was that humans would not have to die, ever, before Adam and Eve sinned. Eden was already what we imagine heaven to be now, there was no need for them to die and go anywhere before sin existed. God had/has human emotion because people are made in his image, I suppose. How can something like emotion just...be, without anything having been before it? I'm impressed with how much of the bible you've got in your answer, and I'm most definitely impressed with your last paragraph. You have a solid argument, yet still support religion in a sense, which is exactly the way I hope to be. As for making sense with today's culture and lifestyle, the Vatican is continuously writing amends and special documents to help guide people according to the times. They even have documents on behavior on the internet. Overall, very thorough answer, I'd like it more than once if I were able.
I don't think he sins, obviously anyone can argue against that, but you choose what you believe in, and you can be proud of your creations in a boastful way, but I think he was proud of what he had accomplished, but who was there to impress? I don't think he is greedy, he must be rather annoyed that his creation has been mixed with evil though, but if he wanted to change that he could destroy the human race like the bible says, even if that was only the story that was told, I don't believe that all of them things actually happened, but it is to teach Christians, and if you believe in it then it teaches god is all powerful, and all knowing, also all loving, so he does love us all. I understand why a lot of people believe what they do, especially atheists,however I was brought up as a catholic so the belief that god is perfect is kind of just there and never messed with really
Which they do. Think of Stalin. He said he had reasons, he killed off at least an eighth of his population, he killed thousands, pretty much just because. Take a look at Russia now, ask around, and people still respect him and think he was one of Russia's greatest leaders, even their greatest leader. http://funadvice.com/r/14s5e4p9hcg This goes to show that humans believe that people in power, or "beings" in power, I guess, can do what they like, if things are good in the end. "The end justifies the means." The idea is that if the flood never happened, all of our lives would be horrible, and we would have no chance of being "saved" because there's too much sin around by which to be influenced.
I believe it is a very valid argument and i agree with you 100%. I believe that Christianity is just full of hypocrites and the church leads them to believe god is absolutely perfect so that way they will follow what is said and try to benefit their lives and become followers. People would rather believe he is perfect and ignore that God himself is just as one of us and is a sinner likewise. Maybe God uses the fact that he has done wrong though to prove a point to people that it is just that wrong. I believe god is imperfect as man because it was man who created him and not god who created man
Yeah, there are a lot of contradictions in the Bible, but just remember it was written by about 60 different people. I'll be honest, I didn't read all of the above comment. But it sounds like they were talking about the inconsistant triad - where God cannot be omnipotent and omiscient, because if he knows everything, and still lets people suffer then ha cannot be all good. But I don't think God needs to be all these things. I much prefere the idea that God is who you want him to be. After all, a God can be anything you give that name to.
Ok, not that I want to get into a philosophical discussion, but 'how can something like emotion just...be?' Couldn't one make the same argument for God? And I didnt say religions aren't adapting. All religions have adapted. I was pointing out the bible itself has not been adapted. And so to find fault in stories and laws that are entirely out of context is not really fair (by the same logic, quoting it out of context to support a bigoted cause also bothers me).
It also depends greatly on what someone requires from a God, and weather or not they recieve what they need. But really, because a God can be anything you want, He can be sculpted to fit that persons idea of perfection. Maybe this is why the Bible is so contradictory.
I believe God is perfect, but im ashamed to be called a Christian, because people misuse that term and make the name Christian bad... so im not a christian, im a disciple of Jesus... hehe this probably isn't the answer you wanted...
There is no God, every culture since the beginning of time has created some sort of god, or gods. I was also brainwashed catholic as a child, but i escaped when i became an adult.
He supposedly killed everyone with the flood except noah because he had his "reasons" saying he had reason allows man kind to say he has reason to kill too.
All I gotta say to all of that is - OMG whatever. :P
oh and uhm thanks!
hello im black
