I'm sure if you follow politics you've read about the Birther scandal, which started during the campaign. Now, I personally think the whole thing is fiction...is our political system so broken that a foreign born person can become president?
However...thinking further about this, I think the whole scandal has only one goal: to make Schwarzenegger the next Republican president. He's done a bang up job with California (not) with our massive deficit, etc...after you ruin the 8th largest economy in the world, I think the next step should be the white house, no?
Do you think that is the real reason Republicans are after this fictional story? Or are they right, and more than half the country is just that stupid?
I don't disagree with your take on the reasoning behind any affiliated RNC members supporting the birth certificate cause. I stated in the first post here that it seems to be the norm to argue about the constiution being ignored by one party... only so that when it's their turn at the trough... the other can ignore it as well. It is an interesting take... and I think it shows that you for one are thinking for yourself and not letting the talking heads do your thinking for you. Time will tell.
If the republicans in office really cared for the constitution... they would never have passed either Patriot Acts or the Military Commissions Act.
I tend to peruse the netherlands politically... those who have shrugged off partisan garments tend to be the pundits I trust. In this realm... the birth account issue is split... but most agree with me in that it doesn't make a heck of a lot of difference one way or the other.
Until the advent of the internet... most were not aware that the Federal Reseve was privately owned... we relied on a handful of media outlets for all of our knowledge of current events and their historical antecedents. Paper trails are made available for us to vet any info we receive.
We are rushing towards political upheaval based on the new renaissance of an erudite middle class. A proletariat of people who can tell when smoke is being blown up their southsides. The two party dichotomy that is self sustaining is beginning to dismantle... thankfully. Partsans are becoming outmoded... ideals arent so neatly categorized. Ironically... as the common people become more enlightened by virtue of the readily available info from the internet... there is talk of passing a bill to bail out the foundering old media. Coincidentally... just like their partners in crime on Wall Street.
When we change from a capitalist farm to a socialist one... the hogs remain the fat ones.
***...is it to far to stretch the imagination to say it's all one big conspiracy, marching towards a totalitarian state with better entertainment than the previous fascist regimes? Nope
Obama, for all his promises, has yet to try his hand at repealing lock, stock and barrel the patriot act. Perhaps it suits his agenda to leave it there, no?***
Zbigniew Brziszinski's name should have registered alarms. Obama is a continuation... perhaps in spite of his own intentions... not a change... change isn't allowed. When a sitting President begins to institute change he is shot in the head in plain sight on a sunny Dallas thoroughfare.
Always critique your government... local... state... and federal... especially congress and the President... they enjoy an exuberant amount of authority over your life and your neighbors lives. You are obligated to critique their performance.
Wherever you picked up your contrary sentiment... take it back and trash it.
The original long form birth certificate has yet to be produced. The short form birth certificate has been produced... but the argument is that it is much easier to forge as no hospital or physician information is provided. A copy of the long form birth certificate would be available from Hawaii's Department of Health.
Anti-birthers or [Caesareanites] claim that while transitioning from paper records to electronic filing... the long form birth certificates via 1961 were destroyed... but two from the day following President Obama's birthdate have been made available to the public. It is also claimed that releasing these long form files to the public is against policy because it places the individuals at higher risk for identity theft... the fact that this policy is preventing the files release from clearing up the doubt of our President's nation of birth is laughable. This seems to be what the so called ***birthers*** require for proof. I would imagine that the timely release of the long form certificate would appease more because as time stretches on... it can be argued that even the long form certificate could be mucked around with... it would require that whichever doctor is listed as attending not be able to be proven elsewhere than claimed on the file.
Like I said to begin with... I don't have a dog in this race. It no more behooves me to remove Obama than to instate McCain... in fact I would prefer Obama. The fact that a simple solution to the questioning lies in the release of documents simple enough to acquire but as of yet released lends itself to the suggestion that there may be something rotten in Denmark... or Hawaii... or Kenya.
I also find it somewhat disturbing that dissident opinions are lumped together in a heap and given a label...***Birther*** in this case... as if they are a cohesive group with a set agenda... manifesto... and synchronized swatches. ***Birthers*** share one common attribute... they are not satisfied with the legitimacy of President Obama's birth account.
When we label... we do it as a divisive means to cull out a certain segment for dismissal. The castigated group is effectively silenced... their words hold less value than those of others. Facts are not on the side of those using the term in a derogatory manner... thats why they must resort to name calling.
I don't know who you consider the legitimate news sources. If you consider those mass mdeia moguls somehow more "credible" than others... I can proffer you read Eustace Mullins' ***Secrets of the Federal Reserve*** much more than a look into the founding of our central bank... It also connects various businesses to one another into the huge cartel that they embody. Whenever large sums of money orbit around any service... such as our main stream media... you can be assured... so does corruption. When you place all of your faith into a handful of soothsayers... don't be surprised when those people sell themselves to the highest bidder... or do you not think that a multi-million dollar contract to say what you are told is much more compelling than speaking the truth... come hell or high water? Give me the semi-literate bloggers any day... and let me vet the information for myself through erstwhile delving into various sources online. The truth is only ever subjective anyway... it is to be determined the same as a puzzle with various pieces missing... those pieces will remain missing... we have to piece the rest together to achieve the closest semblance to the truth... but that can be manipulated. ***Who controls the past... controls the future... who controls the present... controls the past.***
So this statement...***Surely, if it was real, we'd be marching on Washington, pitchfork in hand, yes?*** taken with my statement of compromised media... makes more sense... if the truth would mean revolution... then all the more reason to hide it. *** In a time of universal deceit... to tell the truth is a revolutionary act***... two Orwell quotes... forgive me... but he had his finger on something.
Do you believe in La Cosa Nostra?... would you have believed 70 years ago... when the FBI and news agencies were calling it a conspiracy theory?
I'm not sure what the intended message is with Bush and 9/11... I am sure enough that Michael Ledeen masterminded the Nigerian Yellow Cake Intelligence Fraud through SISMI sources... what are you asking specifically?
To my point... I am asking why not simply reveal the long version birth certificate and put the issue to rest... this would supercede both the ***credible*** mass media and those ***illiterate*** bloggers data... don't you agree?
I consider myself as impartial as can be on this topic... President Obama wasn't my first choice for the office... not by some margin... but I was glad that he beat out McCain... if for no other reason than illustrating the lack of populist ideals shared by the two party system.
I really let all of the info I was hearing or reading go in one ear and out the other...I didn't care... there was no shiny future down the republican path in my opinion... so I really couldn't have cared less.
The only sticking point that I found troubling was the reluctance to release the long form birth certificate. This had been called for by those doubting his birth status as sufficient proof... it was readily available... it would have put to a close the entire issue. I reckon it is speculative to assume that the doubters would have been satiated by the timely release of the long form docment. If those doubting would have renegged accepting the timely release of the long form birth certificate... then I think a discreditable light would befit them.
I am one example of those to be considered dissatisfied with the proof of birth. I have no other agenda than maintaining the constitution... there is no other good I can imagine stemming from the investigation... no matter which way the gavel falls... besides perhaps the trust of whichever news source is vindicated. I know of at least one other like minded individual. I dont think it is fair to lump us all into a group hell bent on Obama's demise.
There is a tried and true measure of propaganda euphemistically called ***Poisoning the well*** the modus operandi is as follows... make up a number of outlandish positions aping a legittmate one that can be easily proven invalid... thereby invalidating the legitimate one by proxy.
I am not suggesting this is the case with the multitude of positions as to Obama being foreign born. I think it is best to instead fixate on the one long form birth certificates validity and let it alone decide our outcome... thereby bypassing any propaganda.
Some have accepted the Kenya certificate... not all... these are broad unsubstantiated generalizations being claimed in order to brand dissenting voices and marginalize them. I have not even considered the matter... it is immaterial... the entire reason I have doubt is based on the reluctance to come forward with the long form birth certificate.
I concede the point that some may still object after the form is released... I think that in all fairness the delay in releasing the form plays a role in festering that particular protestation.
As for me... it never was that big of a deal. It's as enticing to me as picking which taxi service drives me to the scene of my mugging in some back alley. My only concern is for fair play and that the constitution be upheld... this is the sole reason I have spoken up. I know this throws a wrench in the works of categorizing all dissenters as agenda driven... but as you have said... humans are prone to accepting preconceived notions... damn the truth.
Conspiracy theorists... Birthers... Truthers... Moonies... Hollow Earth Crowd... any label is easily bestowed on dissention in an effort to dismiss it outright pre-ejaculatory in the prudest sense . Why is ***Fellow*** so hard to utter? As I have said... that would entail discrediting the dissidents on factual grounds... and as much as it is proclaimed that the facts are one sided... if it were the case... there would be no need in ad hominems.
Mark me down as the hard headed a$$hole who insists on believing. You list these because it isn't fashionable to be associated supporting them... fashions are fickle. I can debate the JFK assassination at another forum. I can debate 9/11 at another forum as well... [Bush Orchestrating it is a common straw man argument].
To the matter at hand... let's compromise... let's leave the matter to the long form birth certificate... the simplest way of verifying President Obama's birth account. No need to complicate things.
So, nobody agrees that the agenda behind the scandal is to put Schwarzenegger in power as President in 2011?
Odd. To me, that fits...as, let's suppose for a moment Obama is illegitimate.
What happens then? Well, we've had the last *two* presidents be elected under false pretenses. First the Florida scandal that begot Bush...and then the "birther" scandal that begot Obama.
If, as you say...there is a conspiracy (the Fed in this case, especially the NY fed, owned by Goldman Sachs, etc, which has proven ties to many economic bubbles that roiled the economy...)...then, it'd be in the best interests of those parties to discredit the consitution, marginalize the populace and march further down the path of a fascist regime.
Considering the grandfather of the last president was involved factually in an aborted coup d'tat...and, let's not forget the CIA's role (again, just facts) in the Bay of Pigs scandal...
...is it to far to stretch the imagination to say it's all one big conspiracy, marching towards a totalitarian state with better entertainment than the previous fascist regimes? Nope.
Agreed, the long form birth certificate would put the matter to rest for 100% of the population...however, we haven't found the WMD's in Iraq, but, many people still believe in the "mission accomplished"...and, Obama, for all his promises, has yet to try his hand at repealing lock, stock and barrel the patriot act. Perhaps it suits his agenda to leave it there, no?
Im not a Republican... and I did favor Obama above McCain. I would not prefer to see Obama removed from office because of this issue... only to institute a President McCain in his stead. I'm not a Republican... nor am I a Democrat.
All this being said... I do believe the constitution should be upheld... Our president should have to be a natural born citizen.
If this is such a cut and dry case... Why hasn't the birth certificate been produced? This is all that is required to resolve this issue. Seems simple enough. It is troubling for those insisting that the President is a natural born citizen to learn that Barry Soetoro was the name President Obama lived under while in Indonesia... a fact previously denounced by those claiming this is much ado about nothing.
Why would republicans care?... It wouldn't surprise me to learn that the entire reason behind republican protest of the constitution being ignored is so they too can disregard it while enjoying public support. I think both the democrats and republicans make a big show when the other party tramples the constitution... but party members never seem to say much when it is their own side trampling it. It's become a useful device in derision... the constitution that is... unfortunately this is the only attention it is paid of late.
I do not believe that Arnold has any direct involvement. Oh, I'm sure he's chomping at the bit for any loop hole to unfold before him but I doubt that many people are pushing for him. In fact, this would be the very firs time I've even heard of such a thing. Regarding the B.C. - I never put much into it. I found it facinating at first but found it too unbelievable. However, I am puzzled that this is being taken to court. I would think that if it could be easily produced then there would be no need to take the time to go to court. It would simply be a joke from the beginning. That is not the case. Apparently, there is something worth considering - what exactly, I do not know.
I used to be a Dem and then a Repub but now I'm an Indy. Both parties have let me down big time! I'm a bit of a traditionalist. When I see the decisions that pull us away from our constitution I tend to get a freaked out. These days I'm for whatever "politician" is the least Socialist. So far I've been continually let down. I want less government right down to the township. Unfortunately, Thomas Paine was correct when he wrote "Common Sense".
My dad traveled back and forth to Indonesia dozens of times for nearly sixteen years.
At that time, a few dollars in the right hands could jail anybody...for life. So...is it possible that somebody made this up? I even have a friend who was involved in litigation for a few years, *in* Bali, as a result of a few dollars in the wrong hands.
Surely, if it was real, we'd be marching on Washington, pitchfork in hand, yes?
You do realize that, when Bush went to Iraq, and when we didn't complete the 9/11 investigations...people were screaming, AND credible news agencies were talking about it, right?
But then (as now..) the economy was in a wreck, we'd just seen the stock market crash, and patriotism was at an all time high. Now the economy is in a bigger wreck...and, instead of putting people back to work, relying on, you know, credible evidence...we are reduced to blog postings from near illiterate writers in a country where bribes go further than the letter of the law as "proof" of an event that occured nearly 40+ years ago?
My oh my...I don't know where to start.
What is interesting to me is that the same folks who make wild allegations about Presiident Obama's birth certificate being fake quickly accepted the supposed Kenya birth certificate that now is widely acknowledged to be fake. Humans tend to be skeptical about facts and ideas that they don't like but accepting of ones that confirm their world view or that they wish to be true.
As I said, the long birth certificate would not put the issue to rest because the same folks would just come up with yet another objection.
There have been lots of conspiracy theories that true believers refuse to give up on no mater how much evidence to the contrary is presented. That the CIA was behind the JFK assassination, that Bush was behind 9/11, that the moon landing was faked, Princess Diana was murdered, HIV was created by the government to control the population of undesirables,
miscegenymiser: agreed that "birther" comes across as a derogatory.
The fact that there are so many different ideas about why President Obama isn't legitimate only shows that people are grasping at straws.
I've heard people claim that Obama wasn't natural born because Hawaii wasn't a state yet, because his mom was too young, because his dad was not American, because he was really born in Kenya, because he was really born in Indonesia, that his birth certificate is fake, that a fake birth certificate someone produced is real, etc.
I will continue to lump all these people together because they do share another common trait, they are frustrated that Barak Obama is president of the United States and are despirate for anything they can find to delegitimize or his presidency.
Have to disagree dude. It is too big a stretch. I think it is simply sore loosers questioning the legitimacy of the president. I don't think most of the American public has that long an attention span and in the first place has little regard for the constitution beyond the 2nd amendment.
In the past there were moderates that tempered the message of the Republican party but most of these have bolted leaving the hard right with their increasingly strident message. For years I considered myself a moderate Republican until their drift to the right drove me from the party.
You are reading too much into this.
There is the saying that if you say something often enough and loud enough people will believe it
Last I heard a slim majority of Republicans disbelieve or have doubts that President Obama was born in Hawaii. The birthers may seem like a fringe group but their message is not falling on deaf ears; they are planting doubt.
President Obama has produced all of the documentation necessary to prove he is a natural born citizen. No amount of evidence will convince the birthers.
I do not understand what the problem with this is. If my facts are right, Barack Obama was born in Hawaii. In case anyone is confused, Hawaii is a state in the United States of America. If you do not think it is, you have just alienated all Hawaiians, and I hate to break it to you, you're wrong. He doesn't show up at your place of employment and tell you how to do your job, so don't criticize how he is doing his.
***Princess Diana was murdered***
filletofspam I didn't think that was conspiracy, I feel that the journalists caused her murder though in the way they pursued her through the tunnel
Not to go as far as saying they murdered her, they were still partly to blame for her death
I am republican and I don't think we should take him out of office for it, but I think it is sketchy enough that we should look into background more next time. I am totally attatched to the constitution and I don't think we should stray too far :)
I thought this whole 'birther' crap pretty much died when his certified birth certificate was actually produced.