A question about abortion.

its a personal answer to a question…this site isnt meant to debate and fight…its for ideas, beliefs, facts and opinions…

…and one’s opinion could be that another’s opinion is wrong.

at that time speaking to arachnid …but its for anyone wanting to debat… an answer shouldnt be up for debat,,,its a personal answer to a question…this site isnt meant to debate and fight…its for ideas, beliefs, facts and opinions…say what you think and believe and leave it at that and dont come back to fight…

If a person kills the mother AND the fetus, it’s VERY illegal…Law enforcement tends to do TWO murder charges…one for mama…one for that clump of cells.

Once again… you’re confusing abortion with murder… two different scenarios. One of which OMITS the woman’s rights.

“but a already fertilized egg IS already a child!!! “

So you believe there is no difference between a child and a zygote? You realize a zygote is a cell?

So you agree that even if you knew for certain the 5 embryos were viable and would continue to be, you would still save the 5 year old? But simultaneously, you claim that an embryo is morally equivalent to a human being?

abortion is not the killing off a child (that would be illegal)

If a person kills the mother AND the fetus, it’s VERY illegal…Law enforcement tends to do TWO murder charges…one for mama…one for that clump of cells.

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It isn’t avoiding a difficult question - I would save the 5 year old because it is the choice of viability. The child has lived to age 5 he is the best choice. I don’t know if the petri dish contains anything viable. And even if it did, the 5 year old will be under my arm.

But that doesn’t change my belief, both are human life.

puglover: Then I put my earlier question to you. What would you save, if you could save only one? A petri dish containing 5 viable human embryos, or a 5 year old child?

seao2florida: And that statement is irrelevant to the argument. Just because it’s alive doesn’t mean it gets the same rights as a full-grown human being. Stop avoiding difficult questions.

It isnt the babies fault either. it isnt the childs fault either

I say it IS…

Biologically speaking… that blasocyst is 50% RAPIST…

Utopia, I agree 100%. on your last comment. I know you bust your a** doing what you do. And I do what I can on my end with the things I feel strong about. I think it is safe to say that many of us don’t take any action on anything other then this site.

+1 to everything religionisgood said.

rickd: Here’s the basic problem: You have no right to dictate what other people do based on your religion. If you want to promote your views, find secular justification for them.

I am pro-choice, but you guys have to realize that it’s not just a bunch of cells. Even at eight weeks, the baby is recognizably a baby, it has all of its toes and fingers, and can feel pain.

Jimahl, I

I just found today that 18 states define Human life to begin at conception and fetal homicide laws have been passed. Didn’t know that, but if you kill a woman who is pregnant, you will be charged with homicide of two individuals. And as a recent example I give you the Lacy Peterson case, very widely published, you may have heard of it.

I already gave an answer to the question posted, now for you to come back and slam what I or anyone else posted as their answer is starting an argument…people have posted their opionion here on what they believe, thats the idea of this site and you have put yours, so…why you want to fight? I put my answer and that wont change, I dont need to come back to fight my answer..thats not what this site is for.

You might want to specify who you’re talking to…

seao2florida, in arachnid’s scenario, there are five embryos in the dish. Five potential human lives. If each of those embryos is the moral equivalent of a birthed human, you would be saving more lives by grabbing the dish. You chose the 5-year old, as I imagine most other pro-lifers who avoided the question would do. That should at least make you stop to consider whether it’s feasible to compare an embryo (not to mention a zygote) with a human child.

I already gave an answer to the question posted, now for you to come back and slam what I or anyone else posted as their answer is starting an argument…people have posted their opionion here on what they believe, thats the idea of this site and you have put yours, so…why you want to fight? I put my answer and that wont change, I dont need to come back to fight my answer..thats not what this site is for.

You still haven’t justified why you think a fertilised embryo is exactly the same as a full-grown person.

I don’t know how many times, nor how many postings it takes for you to absorb this. IT IS HUMAN LIFE. If I must choose which to save, human life which has proven it’s ability to exist or that which was just conceived. I will choose that which has proven it’s ability to exist. IS THAT SO DIFFICULT TO UNDERSTAND? No a fetus is not “equal” to a fully formed human. BUT IS SO DIFFICULT TO UNDERSTAND IT IS “HUMAN”?

ally_xo , no it isnt her fault if she got raped, but it isnt the childs fault either. Its still HER baby, regardless and YES abortion IS murder no matter what the stage…sperm and egg fertilized is already a child in growing. Not a “potential” child, but already a child…when does “it” magically turn into a child? the conception is when it is a child…sperm itself, is just sprm, for who ever said thats throwing away the potential child…thats right, “potential” child, but a already fertilized egg IS already a child!!!

To have an abortion is the killing of a human being. Once the child is conceived you are taking a human life. There is always the ability to give that child to those who cannot conceive for whatever reason.

Each of us would not have BEEN had we been aborted. There is absolutely no reason in this point in our time to abort a viable human life.

Those who for “convenience” wish to abort a human life, I ask you to look and consider those who cannot conceive and want to raise a child. Consider this whether you believe life begins at conception or not. The argument that life doesn’t begin until some ambiguous point in the 3rd trimester is not acceptable. Life has began as early as 21 weeks in their concept.

A foetus is not a child, it merely has the potential to grow and develop into one. There is no reason for anyone to have to justify their choice to anyone else, simply because, it’s no-one else’s business.

I saw the pro-life film ‘The silent scream’, and it is purely and simply propaganda to scare people out of termination, without giving scientific facts about the development of a foetus.

Abortion as a method of birth control is deplorable. And I don’t think that ANYONE thinks that abortion is a great thing. Women aren’t lining up, excited at the prospect of having an abortion. BUT having said that, it is a woman’s right to choose.

To each of you that are completely against abortion under any circumstances, what are you doing to help these children that you INSIST must be born? Are you working for better education, free healthcare for the children, free childcare services, better social services for the mothers AND the children? Are you DEMANDING that sex education be taught in the schools? That birth control be available to women? Are you protesting that most health insurance will pay for VIAGARA pills for men, but won’t pay for BIRTH CONTROL for women?

Or is it JUST about pushing that baby through the birth canal? To hell what happens to it AFTER the birth? That, once born, it isn’t your problem?

Your arguments about banning abortion would go a lot further IF you backed it up with options. If you worked for easier adoption laws. If you wrote your elected officials and demanded that free childcare should be available. If you went to your school boards and DEMANDED the good sex education programs be taught in your schools.

In other words… Get off your butts and practice what you preach. Work for a better world for these children that you INSIST must be born.

For those of you religious people who are against abortion, isn’t it said that god doesn’t close a door without opening a window? Well, maybe YOU should help open that window. Maybe god wants you to work for a better life for those babies that you INSIST must be born.

When you begin to help with the problem of unwanted pregnancy, and that doesn’t mean just saying it is wrong, we will listen. But until you are part of the solution, shut your mouths about the problem.

Yeah, I agree that the “what if” scenario is irrelevant to the abortion issue. What if you and your wife decided to have sex one night, and then at the last minute, decided you both weren’t in the mood? It’s possible you just prevented a healthy, happy child from being conceived. How would you justify that?

Look, I’m not in favor of abortion as a means of birth control. I happen to think people who sleep around all the time without contraception and then terminate resulting pregnancies through abortion are horribly irresponsible. Abortion does have physical and psychological impacts on the mother, and the status of the fetus is a gray area because of its rapid development.

That being said, I’m opposed to an outright federal ban on the practice, precisely because it IS such a gray area. I think the practice needs to be regulated at some level, but to say that abortion results in the loss of an innocent life is a straw man argument, and is unsubstantiated by medical science. And to seek a ban on abortion for religious reasons is downright absurd; the issue isn’t even related to religion.

Harley, If you do things to help then my hat is off to you. But I think we can agree on the fact that MOST people who are either pro-life- or pro-choice make a lot of statements and don’t back it up with action. My answer, however harsh, was directed to them. I don’t believe in just complaining without action. If you see and recognize a problem you should be willing to be part of the solution. Like when someone doesn’t vote and then gripes about the outcome of an election. or when someone comments that they are tired of the poor needing help and they do nothing but walk by a homeless person and turn their heads.

and I do know what you mean by that comment. and I agree. but I add that my answer could also be directed to those that are sickened by the numbers killed in shelters every years, they say “how horrible” but don’t help to fund their local no-kill shelters or their local spay/neuter clinics.

You know what I mean. It wasn’t a judgment of you, just those that say it is wrong and horrible and against god and do nothing to help so that it stops. And by help I don’t mean passing laws to end pro-choice, I mean help to make the lives of the children better.

This is something my parents taught me. Don’t gripe and condemn unless you are willing to roll up your sleeves and get in there and help.

You might do that and I might do that, but I bet you a dime to a doughnut most that answered this question just sit by and say abortion is wrong.

Using contraception is still prevention of a child.

And, for the last time, a ball of cells is not a baby! I think some of you need to go back and study high school biology.

So why not put yourself second for nine months and bring great joy to someone else’s life.

Because some people (like myself) are private contractors, who do not get paid maternity leave. If they don’t work, they don’t get paid. If they don’t get paid, they can’t pay rent, power or for food. It’s a very true reality.

Carrying a foetus to term to have it adopted out to someone else can be awful- imagine having a pregnancy with people cooing and asking you about the foetus, and you saying “yeah… I’m adopting it out”. With a termination, you can hide it, because, to be honest, it is nobody else’s business what you do with your body.

Then there’s the actual pain of the birth, and to be honest, it makes me personally reluctant to have children at all.

After that, there’s the adoption process- there’s no guarantee your baby will even find a home. More and more people are going overseas to adopt children because it’s easier, and there’s a lot less red tape. As someone else has said, if pro-lifers want more people to adopt out as opposed to terminating, why not lobby for easier adoptions? Or better still, make sure pre-teens and teens are taught about how to use contraception.

Also, many people think of abortions in the sense of late term abortions. The fact is, most doctors won’t perform a termination beyond about 14 weeks at the latest, unless there is danger to the mother or child.

Wow. This is intense. Here’s what I think. I was adopted. My biological mother was ‘too young for a child’ (I’m assuming highschool/college, but I was never given an age), and she gave me up for adoption. That being said, I have rather strong opinions on abortion, since many teenage mothers DO have abortions. I do not agree with an adult woman who has a job and is out of school getting an abortion simply because it wasn’t ‘the right time’ for a baby. A teenager being pregnant in highschool can be extremely emotionally straining, and it can screw up your future. Although in MOST cases, its the teen’s fault, its still a very difficult situation, especially at a high school age. And I know a bunch of people will say “Well she should’ve thought of that before!” Yes, I agree with that. But the fact is, most teenagers aren’t really mature enough to stop and think about that kind of stuff- in fact, most adults aren’t. That being said, although I do not agree with an abortion, I would understand if they chose that as a high school student. In the case of being raped, I completely understand if the mother chooses abortion. It is not her fault if she becomes pregnant, and being raped can be difficult enough as it is- dealing with it under the mood swings of pregnancy would be very difficult. So I guess it depends on the situation for me. I don’t necessarily think that abortion is ‘murder’ perse, more just a ‘what if’ type of thing… what could that child have been, had they been given the chance? I just think that in certain situations, it is more acceptable than others.

“Let me simplify it for both of you. The more advanced human life is more responsibly saved.”

Right, so clearly you believe a foetus is not exactly the same as a human being. Less than 1/5th, in fact.

“Secondly, none of these arguments changes the issue that life begins at conception. “

Nobody has ever said life doesn’t ‘begin’ at conception. The debate is over whether something being alive automatically means it’s exactly the same as a full-grown human being.

“Your target keeps moving about.”

Actually, no. I think birth is a fairly good delineation. I think late term abortions are disturbing, but I don’t have a solid reason that they are forbidden.

Besides, you say it like being fixed in stone is a good thing in and of itself. It’s not. Life is not black and white.

You still haven’t justified why you think a fertilised embryo is exactly the same as a full-grown person.

“Can choose to abort a baby but we can’t choose to take our own life even if we are SICK with a terminal illness”

You’re right… euthanasia should be legal…

however that is besides the point… it’s not a baby… it’s a bunch of cells feeding off someone… until it can survive outside on its own it isnt a baby…

harleyrider - if you read what she wrote, she talked about justifying actions to a child that was never born… the act of birth control is preventing a child that could be… abortion is not the killing off a child (that would be illegal), in the eyes of the law, a fetus is just a bunch of cells and not a child…

“arachnid- That is a stupid answer. She is asking about after conception was made. “

No, it’s not. She’s talking about hypothetical “but what would you say to the child you tried to prevent”. I’m pointing out how pointless that is - we can take many actions that lead to a child not existing. Presuming to hold someone responsible for the life of that potential-person in some circumstances is ridiculous.

tseirpeht: A question for you, then: Let’s say you had sex and used a condom. How would you justify your actions to the child that was never given the chance?

Who you would save is irrelevant to the statement “ human life begins at conception”.

arachnid- That is a stupid answer. She is asking about after conception was made. I do not agree with abortion. You don’t have to keep your child, There are so many loving couples out there who want a child so bad but cannot make one themselves. So why not put yourself second for nine months and bring great joy to someone else’s life. There are many ways to prevent unwanted pregnancies, This should always be your first choice. I would love to have a child and for my husband and I it is not “ so easy” to just get pregnant. I think women need to pay attention to their body and if a child is not wanted then don’t “accidently” make one Just my thoughts, I am pro-life. I don’t like when I hear “ OH I could not live with myself if I gave a child up” but you can Kill it, Yes this is my thoughts and I know a lot of people will agree or disagree. I know myself if I can’t have a child I would love to adopt, Just keep that in mind when making a choice.

All-xo— you can still carry that child and give to a loving couple who ache’s to have a child. It is not the child’s fault she got raped, And if she is affraid the child would maker her remember that night then go with adoption. I am sorry, I just think it is a selfish act. And I will not go off on those who think differently them me. I am just commenting on my view’s to the question. Look this is a touchy subject and no matter what is said I will be pro-life just as well as those of you who are pro-choice. I am not saying that I don’t think there are going to be special cases where the women can make that choice but I do think it should be limited to certian cases and not as birth control. We Can choose to abort a baby but we can’t choose to take our own life even if we are SICK with a terminal illness. Does not make much sense to me.

Arachid— read the question, after conception. NOT sperm or egg, but when the two met and make baby. She is asking about abortion, not prevention of a child.

“To have an abortion is the killing of a human being. Once the child is conceived you are taking a human life.”

You can’t just declare that by fiat. You have to present reasons why you think a foetus should be treated the same as a human being.

For example:

You’re in a burning laboratory. On one side is a clearly labelled petri dish containing 5 viable human embryos. On the other, a 5 year old child. You know you can only save one, and the other will certainly perish. Which do you save?

I’m hoping you’d save the 5 year old child.

“Each of us would not have BEEN had we been aborted. There is absolutely no reason in this point in our time to abort a viable human life. “

And as I pointed out, each of us would not have been if our parents had used contraception. You can play what-if all you like, but it doesn’t add to the discussion.

We are going to all agree to disagree, but please don’t shove your point of view down everyone else’s throat. None of us are even answering this person;s question at all anymore. This is a very touchy subject and each of us to even say to eachother you would not know what you would do unless it happened to you. Trust me, I am not pouring my life on a web site. My opinion’s and choice’s are based on my life and the events that have already happened in it. I think it is great that people stand for what they believe in but I will not be the on out front with a sign holding it in front of your face. We are all going to disagree on if it “LIFE” or a “FETUS”
Ok this is the definition of FETUS — The young of an animal while in the womb or egg, esp. in the later stages of development when the body structures are in the recgnizable form of its kind. In man being from the latter part of the third month until birth. Ally Ox you need to check your last thread, I don’t think that is how you wanted your first sentence to read. Look a bunch of us are going to agree and disagree. But be nice about it. To answer this person’s question. I could not justify with myself, and this is why I feel the way I do.

Utopia, that is a very harsh answer, How do you know what most of us do with our personal time? I like the computer but I am not going to post everything that I stand for and what I do about it. Because half the time people’s answers are so mean and uncalled for I don’t need people judging me for what I do everyday or what I don’t do. So please don’t tell people to keep their mouths shut when you don’t really know how we use our mouths to help with this issue. All of us are still entitled to our own opinion and our feelings, religious thoughts or whatever else may be added to the list. It is wrong for people to be so harsh to one another. This is a big problem on this site and in real life. When I talk about dogs, people will throw in my face what about a child, isnt’ that more important? If just never ends. I know you know what I mean by that comment..

arachnid, yes and so did you in another posting when you would save the more viable. These are again questions that carry the discussion to the extreme.

Let me simplify it for both of you. The more advanced human life is more responsibly saved. (Remember survival of the fittest.)

Secondly, none of these arguments changes the issue that life begins at conception. Which I would save is an Aristotle example, it is the lesser of two evils. Got a grip on my position?

And yes an embryo is “morally equivalent to a human being”. Your description of “human life” is some moving, quasi definition in the third trimester. I think, haven’t rechecked it , but it was some 21 week old embryo that survived premature birth. Your target keeps moving about. Mine is very stationary. When the male sperm fertilizes the female egg. It is life, and it is human life at conception. Bottom line, end of story.

“If a person kills the mother AND the fetus, it’s VERY illegal…Law enforcement tends to do TWO murder charges…one for mama…one for that clump of cells.”

Phrannie, please provide even one case where the murderer of a pregnant women was charged with 2 murders? Some jurisdictions have tried, but failed to pass such laws.

seao2florida, you have already admitted there is a difference between a zygote or bastocyst and a 5 year old child. That is the only point people are making. Many unused, frozen blastocyst exist all over the country in fertility labs. Every one is a human life according to you. Should we be forcing the “mothers” of these blastocysts to have them implanted invetro and force them to carry everyone of them to term?

Once you admit there is a difference, your arguments become moot. There is a huge difference between a clump of cells, and fuly developed child that no longer needs a mother to survive.

The question is, when do the rights of the fetus/baby become distinct and separate from the mother?