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In response to the question "Why doesn't God just show himself", I often see people answer "free will".
But that doesn't make sense. Firstly, we don't choose our beliefs. Our beliefs are based on our experience. I didn't choose to believe in gravity, and I can not choose to disbelieve in it. I didn't choose to stop believing in Santa, it just happened. That's true of all our beliefs.
If I ask you "why do you believe in God", you will rattle off a list of evidence and arguments you find compelling. But what you won't do (at least not honestly) is reply "I believe in God because one day a chose to".
If we knew a god existed, we could make a free will choice to follow it or not. But without that knowledge, we can't make such a choice.
toadly said:
"have you ever heard that scripture about casting your pearls before swine?' Unfortunately yes. There are only three things most Christians get out of the Bible:
*** #1 pigs, and #2 fools, which I'm sure that is what you were meaning, right?
What I said:
"The verse you gave as #1 isn't name calling. It is saying that we, as Christian, need to recognized when someone is interested in learning about God, and if they are not interested we need not waste our time because they'll not hear a word we say. There are millions who are interested and we need to search for those who are ready to know God.
Let's say your car needed an oil change. The mechanic says ' you need five quarts of oil', but you decide to buy only two. Don't you think you'd be "foolish" to drive your car with only two cans of oil and not the five? Of course you would. Certain factual concepts equate foolishness if they are done or not done like the oil in the car.
People who believe in evolution, think Christians are "foolish", people who believe Islam think evolutionists are "foolish", people who are atheists think all religious people are "foolish"... Your judgmental insinuating comments towards Christians are founded on your anger toward whom they worship; God. You need to make your peace with Him before it tears you apart.
toadly said "I know what the Bible says, that's why I alluded to it. You've just confirmed the point I was making."
If you desire to be right then ok, I'll let you be right. What are you right about? That Christians are wrong? Why is it that those who desire to be "right at all costs" are those who are usually wrong?
It is evident to all who know you toadly, that you have something against those of us who love and follow God. For whatever your reason for 'sticking it to us', it is unfounded. Just as if it were me being judgmental toward your beliefs; it too would be unfounded, but I choose not to attack you as you do with those who believe in God. Why? because I choose to respect people and their personal beliefs. Just because they believe differently than I, does not alarm me.
The thing here isn't who is right and who is wrong toadly, it is giving that person the respect to believe as they choose without being harassed every time they say anything about God.
When I said: "If God did show Himself, we all would die. Because we are all sinners, impure. Sin cannot stand in God's light of purity, it will be destroyed. " I would like to clarify...Sinners cannot exist in God's purity, His light, it would destroy them. No sinners will be in heaven, only those who have washed their robes in the blood of the Lamb, Jesus and follow Him and do as He says (keep His Commandments) will be saved and will be able to stand when Jesus' second coming is here.
kiasu: There are Godly wars and there are evil wars. The Godly wars are what God has directed those in the Bible to do for certain reasons. The evil wars are brought on by evil men seeking power and riches. They are as different as night and day.
sillygirl: The Bible says no one has seen the Father. Again if God showed Himself to any of us, we would be destroyed by His purity. Jesus Christ, God's Son, showed Himself to the world as a human being. He was 100% human and also 100% God. Moses saw only God's brightness. If God had shown him His full person, Moses would have been destroyed.
All who will stand in the last days (144,000), which are almost upon us, will be sin-free, but they will not know it. They will have gone thru terrible times of persecution and privation drawing nearer and still nearer to God in their walk with Him unaware of their purity.
If only those of you who do not know Christ would spend some time and honestly open your heart and seek Him, pray and read the Bible in search of Him. All who sincerely do so will find Him and He will come into you and you shall be filled.
That is my only prayer for you, that you will allow God to send His Holy Spirit to you, to teach you of Him and His ways.
If any of you would like to ask a question, please send me FunMail.
God bless you all
The first part of your question is answerable many ways. Any sort of inscrutible god might decide not to reveal themself.
When discussing religion with people they often discount the fact that they are their particular religion because their family is, their culture is, and/or at this point in history their point of view is popular. I inofrm them that if they lived someplace where Christianity was in the minority chances are that they would be a different religion and by their own teachings they would be doomed to Hell. Looked at this way salvation becomes a lottery. You have to belong to the right club to be saved.
As far as the choice thing goes, people do talk themselves into things. When someone converts to another religion to marry someone of a diffent faith they are doing so more for love of a person than love of God.
I went through trying to talk myself into believing in God. There were two religions that I studied that I found myself admiring greatly. I was very impressed with the Religious Society of Friends (Quakers) and the Baha'I faith. I admired the work that famous Quakers have done for the causes of peace, justice, and equality. I also admired the unity of mankind that the Baha'I faith teaches. The problem is that I just didn't believe in God. I thought about becoming a Quaker and thinking of God as a symbol or metaphore but that just seemed dishonest and even disrespectful to people who believe in a literal god.
I've met church going people who confided in me that they doubted the existence of God. For whatever reason they still identify with their religion though so they keep going. I guess they still agree with most of their church's teachings but not the God bit. This makes me wonder if there are really more non-believers than the 10-15% surveys indicate.
TO: The ANTICHRIST I understand your concern, but what's the point. I mean obviously I will always beleive in God and you will never beleive in God. That's not going to change, so what are you trying to accomplish by saying God does not exist. You are not going to change anyone's beleifs. I don't even know why Atheists comment on sites about God, because they don't even beleive in God. I mean what's the point, you think I am going to turn into an atheist just because a little girl said so. I mean when it comes to religion, arguing is pointless because nobody will change their beliefs, so what is the point of making a comment on a post about something you are not interested in and do not beleive in ? To adress your comments you said that you are not allowed to say God doesn't exist. That is not true it is okay to say God doesn't exist on this site, many people have. Another point is that you are contradicting yourself by saying there is no God and then you say we ourselves are Gods, and nobody else. If they is no God then how can you say we are Gods, and who does we refer to you and me? So me and you are the only Gods and all of the other living things are not God? So there are two Gods, which are Us, and nobody else.? So you beleive there are two Gods, but nobody else is God except you and me? If you beleived that we were Gods then why did you say you don't beleive there is a God?
The scenario I gave is within actual possibilities. On the other hand, your scenario is not even close to common sense much less possible.
The thing is toadly, that you just want to argue. I do not. You are aggressive and forceful, almost demanding that your way of thinking is right while putting down anyone who loves and follows God. Your words are rude, calculated, and judge mental to all who go against your beliefs or lack of.
You seem to have only one goal in mind and that is to 'win at all costs'. Where as, I do not care about winning unless you are talking about winning souls for God.
You may have seemingly "won" many arguments against Christians, but the only reason it may have looked like you won was because Christians do not desire to fight and argue, especially with illogical scenarios like the one you suggested.
Christians love people and desire to do good to them and for them, which does not mean carrying on an argument, especially when they can see it is going nowhere. That is why I am bowing out, allowing you to go on your way to what ever destination you choose...God gave us all freedom to choose.
So, toadly, again you may chalk this chat up to yet 'another win' against a Christian. I don't mind you saying that, I'll allow you to 'win'...
It does no good to fight and argue when the out come will not change.
When you walk away, you can't here me say please obey me, don't go, simple and free like the way that your making me feel tonight, it's all tonight. Yeah Yeah Yeah Yeah Yeah Yeah YYYEEEH YAH. YAHAHAHHAHAYYYEH MMM Yeah MMM Yeah MMMm Yeah. Hi, Hello, Good Day, Cheerio. Buenos Noches. Koi Nichi Wa. Pardon. Yes Mam, what is it, well Roger thought that maybe you wouldn't like my new apartment. Like it I love it! Oh thank you, you are so kind and considerate. I love you like Michael Jackson Loves Kids. OH REALLY! Yes Margaret our love cannot keep us apart any longer! ZZAAAP! Aleins! NOOO! MARGARET Don't take Her!!! Please NO NO NOOO! I bury my heart and I hope that I shall live once Again! See me in 5200 where the people know how to par-TAY! YEAH!! Decemeber 21, 2012*** stay tuned for tommorow's episode of Heartbreak Haven. On the next episode of Heartbreak Haven Margaret finds out about Rogers affair with Julia and things could get ugly! Stay tuned for the next episode of Heartbreak Haven!!! DUNA NU NU NU NUN NU OHHH YEAHHH IYCHI!!!
toadly, how sad that you attack Christians for their beliefs, making them look foolish by your negative words.
The verse you gave as #1 isn't name calling. It is saying that we, as Christian, need to recognized when someone is interested in learning about God, and if they are not interested we need not waste our time because they'll not hear a word we say. There are millions who are interested and we need to search for those who are ready to know God.
I hope I've cleared up this misconception about Christians.
It's all about faith, if He just showed Himself to people than no one would need faith, people would just automatically believe and there would be no faith, just knowledge. I hope this Bible verse helps answer your question.
24Now Thomas (called Didymus), one of the Twelve, was not with the disciples when Jesus came. 25So the other disciples told him, "We have seen the Lord!" But he said to them, "Unless I see the nail marks in his hands and put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe it." 26A week later his disciples were in the house again, and Thomas was with them. Though the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, "Peace be with you!" 27Then he said to Thomas, "Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe."
28Thomas said to him, "My Lord and my God!"
29Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed." John 20:24-29
"if He just showed Himself to people than no one would need faith, people would just automatically believe and there would be no faith, just knowledge. "
What's wrong with people automatically believing? Isn't the point of the whole thing to keep as many people as possible from being tortured in hell forever? I guess God is willing to risk the majority of his creation going to hell just so he can take satisfaction that a select few didn't need evidence and just had faith in his existence? What kind of God is that?
John 20:24-29
You're missing the point of the story. Thomas may have doubted Jesus resurrection, and Jesus may not have been happy about that, but he still apparently appeared to Thomas, therefore giving him evidence of what had happened and removing all his doubts. Did it not occur to God that millions of people in future generations, even further removed from the event, would have their legitimate doubts as well?
*** "It is evident to all who know you toadly, that you have something against those of us who love and follow God."
I had no idea that you know everyone that knows me.
Bet let's try another oil change analogy. Suppose that your mechanic said you didn't need an oil change at all, but instead, told you you needed to pray to your engine not to overheat. Suppose he even showed you an ancient book that said the same thing. When you questioned him about this, he started telling you 'cast not your pearls before swine' and 'a fool says in his heart my car needs an oil change'. Suppose that upon further questioning, he got mad, and started talking about how your car was going to blow up in 500 miles if you don't have faith that what he's saying is true - and then you'll be sorry!
How would you react in that type of situation? Would you be as patient as I've been?
toadly,
I know you are right, but when someone has a closed mind it is nearly impossible to change it unless they are open to hearing about Jesus.
It's like this; those who are searching will welcome the conversation and ask questions. For those who are not the least bit interested in Jesus and are offended, angered . . . I drop the topic and change the subject. I figure the seed is planted and if someday they do want to talk about Jesus, I'll be there.
You said: "A large number of atheists and agnostics would welcome a God if it made itself present."
Our Creator, God is present for all who are seeking. He is right here. All anybody has to do is open the door to their heart and ask Him to come in. God will not force Himself on anyone. It is up to us to ask Him to come in. He knocks on our heart's door, He comes in.
toadly, From what I can see from in comment, you and I think alike, except I don't go to sites that don't believe in God like atheists, agnostics or those who believe Satan is God like the Free Masons, Illuminati, Jesuits, Knight's Templers... The reason is simple; these people are not searching for God. Their minds are closed to Him. No amount of talking or proof would help change their minds.
There are millions in our world right now who desire to know who God is, who are seeking Him and the peace He gives. They are the sincere ones who truly desire to change their lives and follow the Truth; Jesus Christ.
For those who are asking questions and desiring know Jesus, these are the ones whom God will bless with knowledge, both spiritually and mentally.
I seek out these to offer my help.
God does show Himself but not to all people. He can only be seen by people who beleive in Him. The Nonbelievers can't see Him. God only shows Himself to people who beleive in Him. It is the conditioned Soul's choice to be rebellious of God. Since God have every soul free will, He let the souls defy him. He casted them out of his Heavenly planet and sent them down to the material Universe where they could enjoy themselves. They would not be required to worship God. There they could be their own 'gods' and do whatever they wanted. God loves us so much that he doesn't stop us. Since orginally we didn't love God, God didn't force His love upon us because if you force somebody to love you, it really isn't love. God let us come to the Material Universe so that we could be live without Him.
*** "I understand your concern, but what's the point. I mean obviously I will always beleive in God and you will never beleive in God."
Not necessarily. From what I can tell, something like about 30% of the population has a major belief shift at some point in their life, and I've personally helped several people deprogram themselves, just as others helped me.
I can't answer for all atheists, but in regards as to why I participate in places like this, it's mostly to promote my position. I have a vested interest in others being tolerant of it. Other motivations include a general fascination with delusional thinking, an interest in Christian history, and a desire to let others who are questioning faith realize that it's ok not to believe.
If God did show Himself, we all would die. Because we are all sinners, impure. Sin cannot stand in God's light of purity, it will be destroyed. That is why God doesn't show Himself, it's not time yet, but His time is very near, even at the door!
Now is the time to get ready to meet our Saviour. Now is the time to get ready by prayer, studying the holy word, the Bible, now is the time to give your heart to the Lord. Don't wait until it's too late. Many will and all who hold back will be destroyed in the Lake of Fire at Christ's coming.
The probation has not closed yet, there is still a slight crack in the door where you may just squeese in, but you must hurry; time is closing and God will come.
If G-D just went out and introduced himself to everyone that would take away faith. Faith, right now, is the reason we are having this controversy in the first place. If their was no faith in G-D then people wouldn't know Him as something that exists. Of course, He could very well still exist whether we beleive in him or not, just like their are many undiscovered species around the world that we don't know of but exist.
By G-D showing himself and talking away faith, He is taking away religion and everyone's beliefs with it. If we know there is a type of god out their then no one would have any reason to believe in anything anymore and faith and belief is a big part of our lives today.
a) if god is omnipotent and omniscient, he could either have made us capable of not being 'freaked out' by him, or he could find a way to present himself that would not cause our eyes to explode. You guys make god sound like baby superman before he learned to control his powers.
b) yes silverwings, doubt (aka ordinary reasoning ) blocks beliefs in god. That says something about the quality of evidence in support of gods, don't you think?
c) flytier, why would a god create a rational universe, but then value belief without credible evidence above all else? You make him sound like a psychopath.
neal, you have to believe in the Christian god before the idea of the cross makes any sense. The compelling evidence is still missing. God COULD just introduce himself to everyone, but he doesn't obviously, or everyone would believe in his existence. Everyone might not obey him and love him, but there would be universal agreement that he at least existed.
If you agree that Jesus was not the only person who was ever crucified, then you have to admit that the death of someone on a cross hardly counts as evidence of a god.
also, who are we to say that he has stopped showing himself to us?
I believe that he hasn't.---have you ever heard that scripture about casting your pearls before swine? some things are so sacred and personal that if they happen, we can't share them with others because they won't be respected. they will be treated like the swine treated the pearls. (someone find this scripture and read it...I don't feel like looking it up at the moment.)
the heavens are still open, friends.
DA NA NA NA>>>... Time for Episode 2 of Heartbreak Haven>>EYECHI!!! When we last left off the aleins Margaret was abducted by aleins, and she was kept captive for two years. She finally managed to escape and go back to Earth only to find out that Roger was having an affair with his College Sweetheart Julia. Margaret slammed into the door and at the time Roger was having sex with Julia... Stay tuned for the next exciting episode of Heartbreak Haven DA DUN DUN DA EYECHIII!
Evidence of God is everywhere. He created everything and us too, but God will not show Him self until the Second Coming, then the graves will be opened and the dead in Christ shall rise first then we, who remain will be caught up to meet Him in the Air.
God asks all of His children to believe, to have faith that He is real and to follow His laws. If your faith is strong and you desire to live with God forever, then you will see Him face to face. God bless you!
toadaly, you said: Our beliefs are based on our experience - thus 'free will' doesn't exist - to follow your logic - if my experience is 'Catholic', I do not have the 'free will' to choose to become a 'Baptist' - my 'experience' will not allow - you also said 'if we knew God existed' - look around you and count your blessings, if you don't see His handiwork, you're a nice person but you're in denial...Hope that changes, take care !!
*** "The verse you gave as #1 isn't name calling."
Yes it is.
*** "One of the things God is saying here is that those who say 'there is not God' is foolish ."
I know what the Bible says, that's why I alluded to it. You've just confirmed the point I was making.
*** "I hope I've cleared up this misconception about Christians."
If anything, you've confirmed my preconceptions.
God says in his word that the evidence is all around us, and within us, the doubt is what blocks us from God. It is the only thing that binds his hands. It is something that we have to deal with. He cannot remove the doubt, or will not, because that would violate our "rights & our freedoms"... so, he leaves it up to us, but, untill we deal with it, we will never "see God".
orion,
*** "Their minds are closed to Him. No amount of talking or proof would help change their minds."
I've never met anyone who can not be persuaded, given enough time and enough evidence. A large number of atheists and agnostics would welcome a God if it made itself present. The 'hardened heart' business is mostly a strawman wrapped in an ad hominem.
*** "have you ever heard that scripture about casting your pearls before swine?"
Unfortunately yes. There are only three things most Christians get out of the Bible:
amblessed, you can choose to affiliate yourself with Catholicism or Baptist...ism, but that choice is the selection of an organization, not a belief. You could make that choice without even knowing what the tenets of the organizations are.
Since you said I'm in denial, it's fair for me to bluntly say your thinking is muddled.
It really doesn't matter whether a person beleives in God or not. They don't have to because they have free will. God gives free will to everyone to do what they want. If a person doesn't want to love God he or she doesn't have to. But in the end God is so merciful that eventually He will let everyone come back home.
Thats fine for the congragation but you need to use a little softer approach with unbeliever and some new converts or you will just turn them off. . . . . When Jesus taught the Masses He dwelled of the subject of love and hope not "this is what will happen if you don't believe me. . .
The last time G-D showed himself it freaked everyone out. They could not listen to his voice without passing out or dying. And the only person who has actually seen G-D is Moshe and he could only see G-D's back. It is all a question of whether you believe in a god or not.
The last time G-D showed himself it freaked everyone out. They could not listen to his voice without passing out or dying. And the only person who has actually seen G-D is Moshe and he could only see G-D's back. It is all a question of whether you believe in a god or not.
Hey does anybody know why Emaar won't update the height of the Burj Dubai to 630.5 meters? There are almost two months behind. Manybe they don't want anyone to know, but since people can see it and take pictures of it, it can be known even though it is not confirmed.
You know, Christians really should not mention the Bible passages that call others fools and swine TO those others. It's insulting.
...and then you guys wonder why so many people are anti-christian, sheesh.
I think this question died out, but hey if there is still anyone interested go to the question God exists 2-The Revival. If anyone can answer my last post logically I will admit that God does not exist.
men are in an imperfect state and to see him they must be transfigured. Moses, for example, was able to see and talk to God face to face. Men have seen God, but again, they must be transfigured first.
bbb is wrong, how come your allowed to say he exsist but your no allowed to sa he dosent thats misleading and wrong. There is no such thing, no such person, we ourselves are the gods and no one else.
The Greeks paul spoke to here Act 17:16-34 did not believe in the Christian God before hearing many of them believed. We have no evidence here Mat 27:54 that the centurian believed in The Hebrew God
orion, examine your own post above objectively, and judge it against the standards you applied to me. Since this is a civilized forum, I'll refrain from treating you as you've treated me.
Thanks, I know I'm not perfect, but I try my best which I know falls short and with His help, I'm gettin' better every day...a work in progress, Take care !!
Why should he show himself? He's God, what does he have to prove? He's knows he's better than you, I don't think he cares if you think he's real or not.
Just trying to lighten the mood with some humor. I forgot about what we were arguing about? Are we off the topic of the question again?
I really enjoyed the answers of oaklandathletics and Kamex. . . God has no need to show Himself, He has given us all we need. . .
'''he could find a way to present himself that would not cause our eyes to explode.''' He did. and they hung Him on a cross. . .
How many wars have taken place throughout the centuries with both sides claiming that God was with them?
Just a thought...
orion, your god is not omnipotent if he can not control his power to keep from killing us by showing himself.
"I don't think he cares if you think he's real or not."
Then following him is obviously a waste of time!
semi1900---that was an amazing answer. I totally knew that, but didn't even think about mentioning it!
Anybody up for episode 3? How do you like Heartbreak Haven so far? Please give feedback. Thank You.
Sorry this post went on twice, it wasn't suppose to, I just clicked the button twice by accident.
*** I meant to say: 'He knocks on our heart's door and we ask Him to come in.' :)
Hi bbb, did you tell me once that you are of the belief of Krishna?
Yes, that is correct, I did tell you that.
No it god off topic. . . . Locked.
BBB not working for me.
