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ok, so I was visted by a JW today and I have always had a question for them, so I very nicely asked her if I could ask her something without offending her. I was wondering since JW believe that only 144,000 are going to heaven then why would you give up your space and be out trying to get other to serve. Again I was very sweet and I have talked to them before but always wondered this. So she told me that she had No desire to go to heaven and that she was not apart of the 144,000 and that Jesus was a saint and she is going to be just fine here on earth. These are her exact words. So as we talked I realized she did not believe in the trinty and all that moving past that I asked her where would she be when God would let Satan rule for 1000 years which is in both our bibles. She said God would have her in a safe place. Now she was not able to show me this in her bible, nor able to show me where God would keep believers here on earth because she said she had to go help her other friend who was out walking the area, However Could someone help me out with this whole theory its the first I have heard of it. I personally believe in a Heaven and a Hell, but in the end there is no earth where the people are seperated for each.
“What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? Can faith save him?” James 2:14
And in James 2:20, "...that faith without works is dead."
I believe that a man needs faith, but if you truly have faith, it will be manifested in your works by doing your best to follow the commandments. As with the parable of the Good Samaritan, are you the men of wealth, power, and religion who walked by without so much as a second glance, or are you the Samaritan, who does what is right and manifests his faith whenever he has the chance?
Hem- Fortunately, only a few bad apples have treated me this way. This is merely my observation of the majority of my fellow Christians, and I'm sad to admit, from having been one of those people I described before I fell away and started attacking Christianity. It's only as of the past couple of years that I came back around, and my eyes have been opened to a lot of the rot as a result. Just as I don't question your relationship with the Lord, I ask that I receive the same courtesy in kind. Just as well, a Hive Tyrant is the name of an alien creature from Warhammer 40,000, a game I used to play as a child. It just kind of stuck, and I use it for the majority of my online aliases.
Rapture is a concept that can have its origins traced to 15 year old Margaret Macdonald in the Scotland of the 1830s. She claimed to have had visions of the end of the world(she was bedridden with illness for over a year prior to the time that she went public with her "revelation"), and began privately spreading writings about this with loosely connected scripture, scripture which no one in the prior 1800 years before her had ever connected, considering that they came from different books in "ta biblia" (the books, in greek) written by different men. Eventually, these works would be spread over the next few decades, though Macdonald was heavily plagiarized by many pastors and religious writers. John Darby of England is most heavily credited for helping this idea to spread to the extent that it did.
What happened to Enoch and Zion and Elijah was more commonly known as "translation" They were translated, per se, into heavenly, eternal beings. Prior to the 1800s, there is no recording of rapture being used in Christian religious writings. Also, using past events to predict the future rarely equates. Might help to compare similar situations, but trying to put meaning to all that happened in the past can be pretty useless a lot of times.
I just can't understand why so many people cling to such an idea as escapism, as that's essentially what the idea of rapture is. I'm not one to quote "Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment," because hope has done a great deal for me, but I will be blunt now and then(when the crap hits the fan for real), if it comes in my life time: waiting for something like rapture to swoop down and save you from all your troubles will do nothing but set you up for disappointment.
---“Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him.” (Proverbs 30:5, KJV)---
Matthew 7:21-23 (King James Version) Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Acts 20:29-32 (King James Version) For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears. And now, brethren, I commend you to God, and to the word of his grace, which is able to build you up, and to give you an inheritance among all them which are sanctified.
2 Peter 2:1-3 (King James Version) But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.
There are even predicted in your own copy of the bible, be it KJV or NIV or whatever, men that will preach falsely in the name of God.--"-Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them."--- Men who will distort the truth. And knowing men, they will go with whatever will make them popular where they are, be it a radical new idea, whatever is mainstream, or telling people what they want to hear. I've seen this with more pastors than I care to admit, actually. Sometimes they'll even slyly contradict themselves to keep out of sticky situations with members of their congregation, if they're one of the third category of corrupt.
Psalm 12:6-7 (King James Version) The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever.
At the time they were written, yes. And yes, they have been preserved, but in an inevitably distorted state. We lack entire books of scripture mentioned in the Bible, and I fear that merely by inductive reasoning can one assume there are parts that were edited and distorted, be it through intent or merely through the errors that are bound to happen during massive translations.
I have another question, Is it true that Baptist do not believe you can speak in tounges (spelling sorry), also is it true that they believe you can not lay hands on people to pray for the Lord to heal them? I am trying to find a church to go to but I always have problems with the way a lot of preachers are leading there churches. Problems like they don't preach what the bible says only part of it or they change it, or use a wierd bible that paraphrases everything. I was also told that Baptist don't believe in baptism. What?
Handcock- Why are they listed dfferently or where are you reading them listed differently.
Hivetyrant- I am sorry if I judged your realationship with the Lord, but if I may be blunt --it just sounds to me like you want nothing to do with him, so I just assumed that if you really knew God, how could you every question the things you are questioning. I guess you can look at it as esapeism (spelling) but you may want to look at it like this, If I am wrong about what I believe then all will be ok, but if you are wrong and I am right--How bad is that gonna suck for you. You know way to much scripture to actually believe that its all distorted, or twisted. You have to admit there is life in the bible and I know that you still have some faith, Dont let the Devil win this one. Just think about something for a min. Satan is here to Kill, Steal and Destroy. This comes easy for Satan, If we know what God has said and believe what God has said Satan cannot decieve you. It looks to me like you know what God has said, however Satan is decieving you the same way he decieved Eve in the Garden and the same way he decieves a lot of people, You don't Believe what God has said. Eve Knew God said don't eat but were Satan got to her was by telling her you will not die, and lying to her telling her that she will be like God if she just eats. Eve quit believing what God had told her, and that my friend is the same place you are at, you have quit believing in the truth, Go back to your scriptures and read them aloud, when these thoughts of distorted errors in the bible come to your mind, quote your scriptures louder and you tell me if you don't feel something very real about the bible. Dont stress so much about all these false teachers, your right they are messed up and have messed up scripture but we know that, the bible speaks of these people, you quoted the scripture..I guess I don't understand? Are you just frustrated because the World is bad and going to hell in a hand basket, or what? Remember 1.Know what God has said--Read your bible, 2. Believe what God has said.
---They are nice people and I wish them no ill will, but they have been decieved and do not have the truth (the true Gospel).---
Funny. I like to say the same about most Christians, including JW, but I feel especially sorrowful for the poor souls who are waiting around to be whisked off to paradise just out of the blue. God is a fair god. I honestly believe we get to go through the same crap as everyone else. Get used to it. It's life. Rather than spending your lives preparing to be whisked away, I would say prepare to deal with the worst the world can dish out, because things aren't getting better anytime soon. Most likely, they're going to get much worse before they improve.
Funny thing is that rapture is an idea not even two centuries old. I would suggest all Christians look up a nice book called "Rapture Point". It's a non-partisan piece of literature that presents some unsettling history and findings about the idea of rapture and how it came to be. And so far, I haven't found much, if any, evidence in my own researching to contradict these facts.
But, rapture isn't my own quarrel with mainstream Christianity. The elitist, pitying attitude that permeates most denominations sickens me at times. The constant re-translations and reinterpretations of the Bible, pastors living like middle and upper class men while doing some of the easiest work on earth, and the lack of depth often unnerve me, as well. Christianity as a whole has become as corrupt as the things the Bible preaches against, what portions we have intact, that is. Honestly, especially in the US, people need to get a copy of their scriptures and learn to read it themselves. Might help change a lot of stuff that people let slide in this religion.
Well Bro Tony, I can respectfully say that me and you believe the same, I was tought that we would be taken in the rapture, before the tribulation. Would you mind telling me some verses in the bible that talk about being taken to heaven, You don't have to type out the whole thing just the book, chapter and verse. Wow- Hivetyrant- Umm good name for ya..I am amazed you think the Lord is Just and fair. I am also confused as to what exactly you believe, but either way you are right the world is not getting anybetter in fact its not ever gonna get better, no matter what we try to do the world is dying. I am truly sorry that most of the Christians you have met, have treated you the way you described above, I do not consider myself any of those things. I realize that you have been preached to until you are blue in the face, but who do you think created us, also I have to say that we all dont go through the same things and Thank the Lord for that. If you do ever truly get to know the Lord you won't have all these making your mind worry- because he will give you true peace about them and maybe you won't have to be called tyrant anymore. I also do not agree with all of these new bibles that are out today, but Paul the apsotle also talks about false teachings so that will also only get worse. Answerguy- I am not sure what you believe either but there are still very clear translations of the Bible, word for word. Thank you for the info on the JW- this completely helps me I have always wondered why they went door to door and why they would give up there space, now I know its cause they don't think their going to heaven anyway. The Lady I talked to made it sound like a good thing not to go to heaven.
** Is it true that Baptist do not believe you can speak in tounges (spelling sorry)**
Yes, this is true. Tongues were a “sign gift” given for the Jews (John 4:48, 1 Corinthians 1:22). 1 Corinthians 13:8-10 says, “ Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.” Baptists believe that since we now have the completed Bible (“that which is perfect is come”), sign gifts (such as tongues) have ceased.
also is it true that they believe you can not lay hands on people to pray for the Lord to heal them?
No, this is not true. Baptists have no problem laying on hands to pray for healing, but they believe that God has given us doctors and medication and such as a means to seek healing too. Therefore, although Baptists do lay on hands as an act of prayer for healing, they do not dismiss modern medical attention either.
** I was also told that Baptist don't believe in baptism.**
Nonsense. Baptists believe in Believers Water Baptism by emersion as an act of publicly identifying with the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ after an individual has received Jesus Christ as their personal Savior. Baptist do not believe that baptism saves anyone.
Baptists also believe in the Bible to be God’s Holy Word; the autonomy of the local church; individual liberty; security of the believer; separation of church and state.
Hope this helps.
Revelation 7:3-8 (ESV) "Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees, until after we have sealed the servants of God on their foreheads." And I heard the number of the sealed, a hundred and forty-four thousand, sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel:
12,000 from the tribe of Judah were sealed, 12,000 from the tribe of Reuben, 12,000 from the tribe of Gad, 12,000 from the tribe of Asher, 12,000 from the tribe of Naphtali, 12,000 from the tribe of Manasseh, 12,000 from the tribe of Simeon, 12,000 from the tribe of Levi, 12,000 from the tribe of Issachar, 12,000 from the tribe of Zebulun, 12,000 from the tribe of Joseph, 12,000 from the tribe of Benjamin were sealed.
Revelation 14:1 (ESV) Then I looked, and behold, on Mount Zion stood the Lamb, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father's name written on their foreheads.
Revelation 14:3-5 And they were singing a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and before the elders. No one could learn that song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth. For it is these who have not defiled themselves with women, for they are virgins. It is these who follow the Lamb wherever he goes. These have been redeemed from mankind as firstfruits for God and the Lamb, and in their mouth no lie was found, for they are blameless.
hivetyrant,
one group of verses is not enough to sway mine...
There is actually much evidence of the rapture throughout scripture. Enoch (Genesis 5:23-24) was raptured just prior to the Great Food. Enoch represents the Church and the Great flood represents the Tribulation. This is an picture of the Church being raptured prior to the Tribulation.
** How we lived our lives up to our deaths or to the millenium will determine our place with God.**
Good luck with that. My Bible says, “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.” (Ephesians 2:8-9, KJV).
I am saved by grace, through faith, in the finished work of Christ. If our place with God is determined by how we live our lives, why did Christ have to die? (Galatians 2:21).
I suggest that you do a study on dispensationalism.
answerguy,
Do you all realize that you are relying on quotations taken from the Bible...
I believe in the preservation of scripture (Psalm 12:6-7, KJV)
This is hardly the kind of information that you can rely on as any kind of FACT for what will happen in the future.
“Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him.” (Proverbs 30:5, KJV)
I just learned this in my youth group:) its pretty harsh actually lol they believe god has room for only 144,000 in heavan. ok so they go door to door because they believe that the 144,000 thousand people are already in heaven and that there is no room for them so they go door to door telling people about their religion and trying to recruit them because they think if they do a good enough job at it that they will knock somebody who is all ready in heaven out and get to take their place because theyre better than them or something lol my family doesnt go to church or anything but we're all christians and I remember when I was little and over at my grandpas when we would see them in the neighborhood, like across the street or something, we would close all the blinds and shut the doors until they were gone lol because when they first started coming around my grandma would go to the door and tell them shes a christian and not interested and they would keep talking and not go away and so my grandma would stand there forever because she wasnt going to be rude and shut the door in their face. so we always ended up hiding from them lol memories lmao
JWs have their own "bible". I think it is called the Watchtower Bible. It is not what I concider to be the Holy Bible. They do not believe in Hell. They believe that animals have souls. Most importantly, they don't believe in the diety of Jesus.
My understanding of the 144,000 is that they are Jewish male virgins who will preach the Gospel of salvation throught Jesus Christ during the tribulation. All of us who have placed our trust in Christ now (during the current Church Age) will be raptured before the tribulation and will already be in Heaven.
I don't know where they get the idea that they will stay on earth. I assume it is from their "bible". If they are still on earth during the tribulation, that means that they missed the rapture and therefore never were indwelt with the Holy Spirit.
They are nice people and I wish them no ill will, but they have been decieved and do not have the truth (the true Gospel).
No offence meant to any JW reading this.
I'm sorry, the book was "The Rapture Plot". Got the names mixed up with something else I was reading.
I'm ashamed to say that one group of verses is not enough to sway mine or most dedicated scripture readers. Taking the entirety of the New Testament into context with each other, there is little evidence that some people are just going to be whisked away. We're going to be stuck here just like everyone else when the crap hits the fan, and we're going to have to survive it or physically die, just like everyone else. How we lived our lives up to our deaths or to the millenium will determine our place with God.
I feel especially sorrowful for the poor souls who are waiting around to be whisked off to paradise just out of the blue.
You are free to feel sorrowful for me if you want to, but there is no need (Titus 2:13).
God is a fair god.
I have to disagree. God is many things but I would not call Him “fair”. If God were “fair” we would all get what we rightfully deserve (Romans 6:23). God is not “fair”, but gracious.
Funny thing is that rapture is an idea not even two centuries old.
The Apostle Paul writes about the rapture in 1 Thessalonians (4:13-18) which was written around A.D. 51.
Ok, Bro Tony, so I agree with you--which is why I am trying to figure out why they are saying everyone else will be staying on earth.. Is the JW bible different the lady I talked to said the only difference was that they call Jesus, Jahova- and that there bible does not say "Thou Shout" I don't know a lot about their Religion and I am very curious as to where in the bible ( which she could not show me) did it say they would stay on earth. I also mention to her that the 144,000 were men, She agreed.
TO UTOPIA::: it looks goog what you put out there about the tribes but anybody that know what to look for will know right away that it's not right.I Just want you to know that those tribes that you mention are not all right.. I know that the bible list then just the same way you have them listed but you have to see that they are not the same as the 12 original tribes. and it is reasion for that, so now the question is why are they listed different , that is the key...
I just read Revelations, and layah2sexc is correct. 144,000 are chosen to serve in God's temple, and the rest of the faithful remain on Earth, which becomes Heaven (''New Jerusalem'') after the 1,000 years of Christ's reign. Skip to 19 and 20 for the ''Only the faithful will be allowed inside the solid-gold city'' verses.
Personally, I think a solid gold city does not sound like good urban planning. How are you supposed to heat a solid gold apartment?
Do you all realize that you are relying on quotations taken from the Bible, which have been translated at least once or twice from other languages (and are therefore less reliable), and which are symbolic representations of someone's dream?!? This is hardly the kind of information that you can rely on as any kind of FACT for what will happen in the future.
Thank you for the scripture, but what I am trying to find is where the bible says, only 144,000 will go to heaven with him and the rest of the believers stay on earth in paradise. I do understand there will be 144,000 chosen by the Lord. I just don't see where that is all that goes to heaven with him, or where the others stay on earth as paradise
First of all, the 144,000 are Jewish, “all the tribes of the children of Israel” (Revelation 7:4) and they are male virgins, “not defiled with women; for they are virgins” (Revelation 14:4). They are not the (only) inhabitants of Heaven. JW doctrine is not in line with the Bible.
hemcgill,
Would you mind telling me some verses in the bible that talk about being taken to heaven
Genesis 5:24; 2 Kings 2:11; 1 Thessalonians 1:10; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18; 1 Thessalonians 5:9; 1 Corinthians 15:51-52; Revelation 3:10; Revelation 11:12
What is the difference in and apolistic beliefs and Baptist beliefs ? Also what is the difference in Assembly of God? Again I am trying to figure out a church to go to, we have just moved.
144,000 are gonna rule in heaven next to Jesus and God while everybody else living in paradise on earth.
Here is a link that my be helpful. http://www.bible-truth.org/BaptistHistory.html#000
but where is that stated in the bible?
