What does the Bible say about transsexuals?

* Toadaly, Please realize that not all Christians can be lumped together, the same way no two religions or non religions should be lumped together.

Good night! I don’t know how you could have gotten that from my post above. I thought I made it clear different branches believe different things, and that liberal Christians accept transsexuals with open arms.

Of course they had surgery. There’s evidence of surgery dating back to prehistory, nearly 20,000 years ago.

Evidence of surgery isn’t PROOF of surgery, and I don’t consider hacking off a limb, or mutilation, to be surgery. Besides, that’s a long way from ‘gender bending’

Nothing is the work of Satan. He is not a creator. When we all sin and do bad things, Satan is happy. Satan doesn’t makes us do bad things. It just makes him extremely happy to see people disobey God.

I dont really know, I dont think theyve ever mentioned it. but I think that God put you in that body and so you should leave in that body the way you came.

There’s no mention of it, and they didn’t have surgery AT ALL back then. But I’m sure some christians will say God doesn’t make mistakes, and he put you in the right body, you shouldn’t question him, its the devil inside you, it’s an abomination, etc.

something like that…

Interesting that anything that makes people uncomfortable winds up being the work of satan

Hahah…wow. I read it and I think they put to much human emotion into there studys.

‘Darwin renouncing evolution is a myth” So is evolution so I’d you stop looking into it as a fact.

In Genesis 1 it stats, “God saw all that he had made, and it was very good”. Which meant it was the way he wanted it. “perfect” …regardless of what you think…

Oh, well, if you haven’t seen it, clearly it doesn’t ever happen.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality_in_animals http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_animals_displaying_homosexual_behavior

I’am from NEW YORK CITY / And TRANNY’s are just as common as a [ third sex gender ! ] they are beautiful and amazing beings !

Gotta say, this topic held y’all’s interest a hell of a lot longer than mine, and I wrote the durned thing.

Don’t forget that little fish that swims up your urethra if you pee in the river. He made those, too.

Some people believe Science books are incorrect. Does that make it not evidence for anything? In this case you don’t have solid evidence either.

What the hell makes you think good means perfect. “He saw it was good” means it was the way He wanted it

How did your question turn into all this?

I dont think that God anticipated that we would use the modern tech that we have now to actually change people’s genders. back then, it was impossible, you were just stuck with whatever God made you as.

 I bet God is looking down from Heaven, at all of the T/Vs of the world and he's crying right now. 
 To answer you question, I think that a girl who becomes a guy and dates a girl or a guy from becomes a girl and and dates a guy is the same as being gay. You can't what you really are from God.

I agree captain!

So the options are “be lonely” or…”be lonely.” Nice.

“Down’s Syndrome children”

God created children with Downs syndrome for his glory. In John chapter 9 the bible speaks about Jesus healing a man born blind…

John 9:1-3

As he went along, he saw a man blind from birth. His disciple asked him, “Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?” Jesus answered “Neither this man nor his parents sinned”. “But this happened so that the work of God might be displayed in his life.” Later in the chapter Jesus then heals the blind man…

This was not God’s mistake nor the work of Satan. These people were born with Down’s Syndrome so that he may be glorified. Being only human we can not understand this and who are we to question his works. Just like Pharaoh, his whole purpose of existence was for God to display his power threw him.

Wow. How do you pack so many fallacies into so little space?

First, the issue of “What do you consider homosexual behavour” is addressed in the very first section of the first wikipedia article I linked you to, ‘Applying the term “homosexual” to animals’. Really, denying something even exists (homosexual behaviour in animals) when there’s such copious evidence of it - that people have already pointed you to, but you obviously refuse to read - just makes you look stupid*.

Second, the Big Bang has nothing to do with how we look today. We didn’t just spring fully formed from the moment of the big bang.

“If any of you were smart you would know that Darwin renounce evolution on his deathbed after his study of the human eye.”

Wow. 1) Darwin renouncing evolution is a myth. He did no such thing. 2) The eye being ‘irreducably complex’ is also a myth. There are many explanations of how the eye evolved, and today in nature we can see eyes of many different complexities, ranging from simple light-sensitive spots to fully developed eyes like our own. 3) Whether or not Darwin renounced evolution is completely irrelevant to its validity as a scientific theory. A scientific theory stands on its merits, not on who supports it. Furthermore, evolution has come a long way since Darwin.

“It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to see that there’s a God and he created us… and made us perfectly…”

Creationism is not a scientific theory. It makes no testable assumptions. You can’t disprove it. It doesn’t expand our understanding of the world around us. Evolution is a scientific theory, whether you like it or not.

As far as making us perfectly goes - what’s so perfect about us? We have tailbones and tonsils, a spine that wasn’t made for walking upright, an appendix that does nothing useful except occasionally get infected and possibly kill us, and sinuses that are so compressed that most humans suffer from sinus problems at some time in their lives. None of which significantly compromises our ability to reproduce, but all of which seems pretty damn un-perfect to me.

• Note that I said it makes you look stupid, not that I think you are stupid. I don’t do Ad Homs.

“God didnt said…ok you are going be gay or whatever … he made you body … perfect

your the one whoms fallowing the evil and thinging dirty shittt…”

Actually, sexual preference has been shown to be largely genetic and environmental. It’s no more a choice than being left-handed is a choice.

Next time, I suggest you research your facts before posting hate-filled screeds about things you disagree with.

Toadaly, Please realize that not all Christians can be lumped together, the same way no two religions or non religions should be lumped together.

I will admit, tradition has a big part in the way many Christians believe. I do not think that all of us are like that though. I am a supporter of the bible, even though I know that many of it’s words were changed to control the masses. I understand that. I get it. But I do not believe that God would let His word become so corrupted that it would lead too many astray. It’s bad enough when people add new books to the bible and change the wording in our culture today. Many cults have been created thus. Paul had many words about this, trying to keep the Word clean.

That being said, somewhere along the lines, some Christians decided it was their place to judge others, forgetting what Jesus said about the first stone. Let him who is sinless cast the first stone. It makes you think doesn’t it?

Personally, from what I have read I have not seen anything about transsexuals. This is not to say that it is not there. It is just to say that I have not seen it yet. Now that being said, it does say in the bible that to PRACTICE homosexuality is a sin. To be gay is not. Just the practice. Again, a totally lonely life.

I do not have all the answers, and you will never hear me say I do. The day I stop learning will be the day I die. So I am not sure what to tell you other than it is only the practice that is condemned.

And for Christians yes I know that Jesus said if you do it in your mind it is a sin, but instead of Judging others we should pray for them.

The bible says that man was created in Gods image, and he created them male and female.

We live in a society where many do not know what gender they are.

This is the work of the enemy.

They were not created that way.

Satan is a deceiver, and he hates God, and Gods creation, he can’t harm God, except thru his creation, the man (both male & female) that God loves, that was created in his image.

The bible says that we do not war with flesh and blood, but with principalities, and powers of the air, wickedness in high places, that is the mind, of men, or our own mind, the warfare takes place there, and we win or loose, according to the tools we use. God has given us scripture, prayer, fasting, ect, that will bring down the strongholds, that stand between us and him. It is his will for us to use those tools, to be free.

If you had a child, and that child somehow, became convinced that he/she was something other than a child, born in your image, how would you feel?

God loves his creation, even in its fallen state. He does everything he can to help that creation to live productively, and happy, and in accordance with his original plan.

It is not his intention for a person to be mixed up about what sex they are.

He can bring deliverance, when this happens, if that person will seek him, with all his heart.

Fasting is designed to break the yoke of bondage, in a person.

Anything less than freedom, is bondage.

And by freedom, I do not mean that anything goes, I mean that as long as we follow Gods spirit, we can be free.

Free from bondage, free from slavery, free from condemnation, free from sin. Free to follow the Living God.

Not mixed up…

Not, nowing who or what we are, or were meant to be.

Whatever condition your soul is in, please run to God, and not from him. He will receive you, forgive you, and bring you peace.

What about Down’s Syndrome children? Are they created in God’s image, or are they the work of Satan?

If one, God has Down’s Syndrome. If the other, we need to start urging Down’s Syndrome children to reject the work of Satan and choose to be intelligent.

The problem with the “God’s image” argument is that eventually, one has to either accept that God makes mistakes or that we have to condemn people for things they have no control over.

“Homosexuality is also a widespread occurrence in nature. Many different species of animal engage in homosexual behaviour.”

…I don’t ever recall seeing a dog stick its d*ck up anther dogs @$$. = / and neither have you, so don’t lie…

Hahha, wow… What do you consider homosexual behavior. A bunch of buddies in a bar? People have to stop sticking human emotions into animals and realize that there just animals. We’re set apart from them in more then one way. Athletes and Christians alike both agree that the body is made perfect and beautiful. Look at the chances of ending up with this kind of body. We cant have got this lucky from a big bang. We probably would have ended up all mangled and distorted and impossible to reproduce. If any of you were smart you would know that Darwin renounce evolution on his deathbed after his study of the human eye. Sadly…This basically takes a whole link out of your big bang theory as well. Yet schools are teaching it as facts…

It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to see that there’s a God and he created us… and made us perfectly…and if God meant for people and animals to engage in homosexuals behavior he would have given us both female and male parts so that we may reproduce.

“‘Darwin renouncing evolution is a myth’ So is evolution so I’d you stop looking into it as a fact.”

Based on what - your word and what you think the Bible says? If you’re going to assert something outrageous like that, you’re going to need some pretty solid evidence. Just because you don’t want it to exist doesn’t mean it doesn’t. We can even see operating on our time scales - bacteria developing antibiotic resistance is just one well known example.

“In Genesis 1 it stats, ‘God saw all that he had made, and it was very good’. Which meant it was the way he wanted it. ‘perfect’ …regardless of what you think…”

I don’t know, “very good” sounds like just one step up from “good enough” to me - hadly “perfect”. Besides, if this is your criteria, your definition is a tautology - god created us perfect because, well, he said it was perfect, so we must be. And since we’re so perfect (he said we are!), we can’t have come about due to evolution!

Arachind, the Bible is solid evidence. Science has to correct its self ever 100 years or so. The Bible is over 2000 years old and has not been corrected since it was written.

God created us the way he wanted us. You may not see it as perfect, because he didn’t create us the way “you” wanted to be created. >_>

God seen it was good. He didn’t lift a finger to change it. That means it was perfect in his eyes.

“Arachind, the Bible is solid evidence.”

No, it’s not. It only means anything if you already believe it’s correct, so it’s not evidence for anything.

“Science has to correct its self ever 100 years or so. The Bible is over 2000 years old and has not been corrected since it was written.”

You say that like it’s a feature. Science is constantly correcting itself, which is the point. If you’re wrong about something, you should correct yourself. That’s how you learn and get it right (or at least closer to right) next time. Something that is never updated or corrected when it’s wrong is not a point in its favour.

Besides, if you think the bible “is over 2000 years old and has not been corrected since it was written”, you need to look more at biblical history. The books in the bible went through many transcriptions and retellings between their first authorship and becoming what they are today, and they changed - to a greater or lesser extent - during that period. We can see this from looking at historical documents such as the dead sea scrolls, which reproduce certain parts of the bible as they were written at the time.

And then there’s the council of Nicaea, who decided (amongst other things) which books would be included in the bible.

“God seen it was good. He didn’t lift a finger to change it. That means it was perfect in his eyes.”

You’re quite welcome to hold that view, of course, but then you can’t try and use it as “evidence” against evolution, since even if we accepted it as a plausible argument, your definition of “perfect” is based on the assumption that the christian god created humans.

“Science books” aren’t the evidence for science - they’re explanatory material. Peer reviewed papers are the actual output of scientists, and if you don’t believe their conclusions, they provide the data needed to test it out yourself and come to your own conclusions (and publish your own peer-reviewed research). The whole point of science is that you don’t have to take someone else’s word for it - they show their workings so you can verify the results yourself.

if sciebce books arent evidence for science then why is science taught through them. that statment makes no sence. you discreadit the bible like it hiericy. it should be alwoed in to evidence as much as “peer-reviwes” to denie it completly is stupid

Because science books are designed to describe the science at a level that is understandable to the people being taught about the subject. You can’t teach people science through papers - they’re designed to be understood by other people trained in the field, not by people trying to learn the basics.

As far as the bible vs peer review goes… the difference is that peer reviewed papers aren’t held in esteem for themselves - they’re useful because of the research they convey. The peer review is there to help single out the worthwhile and legitimate research, but even a peer reviewed paper isn’t treated as gospel (if you’ll forgive the similie) - its claims can be independently verified by anyone who doubts it.

Yes it still is. And God dosen’t place those desires inside of a person, their past does.

You have a mutilated man lying with another man…

… whatever god thinks the scriptures call it an abomination.

So if you are worried just give up your cross-dressing.

Of course they had surgery. There’s evidence of surgery dating back to prehistory, nearly 20,000 years ago.

Of course, the devoutly religious do not believe there WAS a “20,000 years ago,” so that puts that argument in a bit of a pickle.

But there is plenty of evidence of surgery during the time of the Israelites. There’s entire surviving surgical procedural manuals dating back nearly 4,000 years before Christ. How successful they were, of course, is another matter.

But Christians have never been shy about applying the teachings of the Bible to new time periods, and surely this subject has been broached before now.

The reaction of conservatives to any question along these lines - anything about sex, basically - is pretty predictable. It’s wrong. Always. No matter what. Especially if it’s enjoyable.

I say “conservatives”, because it’s a view that’s shared more by conservatives than by any one religion (though Christianity seems to have more than its fair share of conservatives).

fiji: Apparrently god created virii, bacteria, parasites and cancers, too. If one infects you, will you piously turn down all treatment, since clearly god wanted it that way?

Well I know for a fact that there were men (Romans if I’m not mistaken) that were having sex with men in the Bible and the Lord said that was wrong. He made man for women, not men for men. It really doesn’t matter about the surgery aspect, because you were still born a man, and if you ever do meet a man that wants to be with you he’d have to know that you were born a man or you’ll just be living a life of dishonesty. Which would have to be lonely.

God makes you who you are while in the womb. He does not put a mind of a woman in a mans body. If He wanted that man to be a woman then he would make her such that. So, yes, I do believe if a man has surgery to become a woman, God still considers it man laying with man. God made him a man because he wanted him to be a man. Period.

Dawnathen presents the other side of the argument – that anything that goes against the man+woman equation is unnatural and therefore against God. But homosexual behavior has been observed in over 1,500 animal species. The pairings of the black swan alone are over 25% homosexual. Giraffe’s have been observed having all-male sexual orgies. Is Satan at work in swans and giraffes?

From http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/content/full/85/5/2034: “Transsexualism is connected with a difference in the human brain called the bed nucleus of the stria terminalis. In one study, male-to-female transsexuals and cisgendered women were shown to have brains that were similar to each other in the BSTc area of the brain. Both heterosexual and homosexual men showed male brain structuring in this area.”

Christians pick and choose what they want to follow, and then find Biblical support for their preferences. Even fundamentalists, who claim otherwise, are doing that, by starting with the assumptions that; the Bible is written as one consistent tome, it is inerrant, it is complete - unsupportable ideas driven by the fear of ignorance.

In more liberal branches of Christianity, I’m sure transexuals are welcome with open arms. After all, there are openly gay ministers in some branches.

In other words, it really doesn’t matter what the Bible says on the topic, because the Bible is not the ultimate source of Christian beliefs - tradition is.

Down’s Syndrome or any other child with a handicap are not works of Satan. God makes people the way they are for many reasons. Nobody really knows those reasons until it just “hits” them. My nephew is Autistic. He has been the biggest blessing in my sister and her husbands life. He changed they way they live and their complete outlook on life. By that, God is glorified. Some people, however, that have children with handicaps don’t see it that way. My auntie has a son, he is now 18 years old. He is severely retarded, he has anywhere from 80 to 150 “drop seizures” a day, He has 2-3 grand mal seizures a month, he cannot talk, he cannot use the bathroom on his own, and he cannot ever be left alone. My auntie, of course, loves him with everything she has. But… sometimes she asks herself if there is a God and why would he do this to her. Her son, my cousin, I see as a huge blessing. When I was younger, my auntie used to tease the “retarded” people walking through the mall, in stores, on the beach, or just walking down the street. I used to get so embarrased by it. God blessed her with a child of the same nature and now she see’s what she used to be like and it hurts her feelings really bad. She told me not too long ago that if she could go back and take all those remarks back, she would do it in a split second. She feels horrible for what she used to say.

Just because children are born with mild to severe handicaps doesn’t mean they are works of Satan. And Yes, MAN was created in Gods image.

dawnathen: So why are homosexual people “the work of satan”, but people with genetic disorders such as downs’ syndrome not? Who decides what things are “the work of satan” and what aren’t? And if god “does not put a mind of a woman in a mans body”, why does he make other mistakes like creating children with congenital and genetic defects?

God tells us what to do. If we don’t listen to what he says then that is our choice. God doesn’t make us do or not do what he says. He’s pretty much just the TOP BANANA making the rules. If we follow them then we are following God’s word, if we choose not to then that has nothing to do with a decision of God. In God’s eyes practicing homosexuality is no different from being gay. A sin is a sin, no matter what.

I never said homosexuals are the works of satan. Like I said before children born with these kinds of handicaps are blessings. We love them just as much as we love our children that are not handicapped. God isn’t making a mistake by creating these children either. It sounds to me you have a lot to learn about God if you think he is making mistakes by creating such blessings.

“Evidence of surgery isn’t PROOF of surgery”

That sentence just made my brain cave in.

Regardless, there is plenty of – sigh – proof that fairly complicated surgery was being performed 5,000 years ago. Ignoring the physical evidence of bodies with indications of surgical procedures, works like the Edwin-Smith Papyrus, the Huangdi Neijing script of China, and the extensive works of Hippocrates, to name but three, survive from antiquity to detail medical procedures far more complex than, as you say “hacking off a limb” or “mutilation.”

But I wasn’t addressing sexual-reassignment surgery specifically, merely your assertion that “they didn’t have surgery AT ALL back then.”

God dont make mistakes …and God dont make us who we are we make urselfs..

God didnt said…ok you are going be gay or whatever … he made you body … perfect

your the one whoms fallowing the evil and thinging dirty shittt…

‘Evidence of surgery isn’t PROOF of surgery’ That sentence just made my brain cave in.

They have medication for that, you know…

works like the Edwin-Smith Papyrus, the Huangdi Neijing script of China, and the extensive works of Hippocrates, to name but three, survive from antiquity to detail medical procedures far more complex than, as you say ‘hacking off a limb’ or ‘mutilation.’

None of the ones you mentioned are 20,000 years old, nor 5,000… though, the E.S.P. comes close. Got anything older?

And yes, I was initially referring to sex-change surgery initially. But since you’re asking questions about religious views, taken from ancient text, that is taken on belief, not proof. Its reasonable to remain skeptical regarding ANY text from that time period. I’d recommend you funmail me, since anything older than around 6,000 years old… didn’t happen… according to the Christians.

Somewhere in the bible (new testament) Jesus says God will bless or love (para phrasing) even the Eunuch. If he would do that, he would bless and love a Transsexual too. Sorry, I’m one of those liberal Episcopalians. LOL

arachnid: you can justify anything you want. Being gay is a total choice. Are you going to tell me that it’s not a choice to prefer white men over black men now? Most everything you do in life is a choice. Being gay by some people is just preferred. They can control it!

dawnathen: Denying it won’t make it less true - sexual preference has large genetic and environmental factors. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexual_orientation#Theories_of_causality for more details.

Homosexuality is also a widespread occurrence in nature. Many different species of animal engage in homosexual behaviour.

matt18091: How is it “for the glory of god” if they don’t get healed? I can kind of understand it in that specific case (though how cruel is it to make someone blind from birth just so you’ll have someone to demonstrate your powers on), but it doesn’t follow that everyone born with a disability is “for the glory of god”.