The confederate flag--why?

Why is it that people from the southwest use the confederate flag? I went to basic combat training in SC, and in one "class" they asked if anyone thought that it was racist to put the Confederate flag on their car or for it to be flown in front of federal buildings. I would like to know how that can NOT be considered not only racist, but also un-American as well. It would be the same if Germany still used the Nazi flag.

This is an article I found to support my feelings on this issue.

Confederate Flag still an issue?
eastcarolinian ^ | October 14, 2004 | Peter Kalajian

Posted on 10/19/2004 5:14:54 PM PDT by stainlessbanner

As I drove down 5th street yesterday, I spied a bumper sticker that addresses an issue I have been waiting for an excuse to write about. It was in the back window of a pickup truck, whose ability to operate I found simply amazing, strategically situated between an empty gun rack and another sticker depicting Calvin (of Calvin and Hobbes fame) urinating on "Osama" with a devilish grin on his face.

I will leave the "Osama" reference and defamation of an innocent newspaper comic strip character alone for the purposes of this article, and will concentrate on the content of the other bumper sticker. It was a simple, Confederate flag, next to which was written the words, "Heritage not Hate". Now, if I have ever read something more deserving of one of my diatribes, I cannot recall.

This statement, which for the record I believe to be sheer nonsense, speaks of an issue with which I had very limited experience before relocating to North Carolina, but an issue of importance nonetheless.

All my life, the Confederate flag was something of a joke to me. M history classes in high school and earlier had taught me that the Confederate defeat during the Civil War was a good thing, that the moral argument against slavery (espoused by the Lincoln government in Washington) was a black and white issue, about right and wrong, and that the Union triumph is 1865 was righteous.

Granted, the history I was taught spoke from a biased perspective, from the moral high ground of the abolitionists and northern intellectuals, and never really addressed the true, underlying reasons for the Civil War, which I would come to learn much later. After considering all the information I have been able to locate on the subject, after long hours of trying to understand just where the Confederacy was coming from and why they wanted to defend their way of life, I have come to a few conclusions.

Naturally, these conclusions reflect my upbringing and Northern perspective, and I am more than confident than my loyal readers will have more than a few comments of their own to contribute.

First of all, "Heritage not Hate", is an extreme cop out. Sure, the Confederate flag, displayed in the year 2004, some 140 years after the actual conflict ended, may stand for some long forgotten Southern pride issue. It may stand for the struggles that people in the Southeastern region of the United States suffered through and the wars that they fought.

It may stand for some perceived difference between the North and South, which apparently has persisted to this day, and may fondly recall the era of Southern dominance of the United States.

Woops, little mistake there. The South has never "dominated" anything. It is another region within the greater whole, just as it was then and remains so today. As for the "Not Hate" part of the bumper sticker, a more laughable statement I cannot recall. There are far too many damning coincidences that will forever relegate the Stars and Bars to the level of racist propaganda.

Why is it that hate groups all over the country, to this day, fly the Confederate flag as a symbol of their ideology. White Supremacist organizations, the sad, pitiful remnants of the Klu Klux Klan, along with many other neo-Nazi and racially motivated groups all include the Confederate flag amongst their symbols of worship.

Is this coincidence? Are people who fly the Confederate flag, be it in bumper sticker form or on the end of a flagpole, trying to align themselves with such openly evil and backward-thinking organizations? I don't think so. I think that people fly the flag to recall the once glorious Confederated states of America and celebrate their history, while at the same time somehow overlooking the racial implications inherent in the very symbol they hold so high.

Make no mistake. Whether you choose to recognize it or not, the fact remains the same: The Confederate flag is a racist symbol. It was during the Civil War, it remains so today. I challenge anyone to show me an African-American person with a Confederate Flag bumper sticker or "The South will rise again" written in their computers screensaver.

Is this a coincidence? You would sooner find a swastika flying outside the Israel embassy as you would a Confederate flag flying at an N.A.A.C.P rally. To me, the symbols have long been morally relative to each other. Both stand for hate, oppression, and the wanton murder and destruction of a group of people because of some perceived inferiorities. Plantation owners in the South, before and during the Civil War, treated slaves the same way they treated horses and sheep.

They were not human beings, quite the contrary. They could be bought and sold like farm equipment and with as much compassion. So to during the Nazi era in Germany; Jews were not considered people in the same way that German citizens were, therefore their wholesale murder could be justified. Anyone who cannot see the glaring similarities between the Confederate flag and the Swastika needs to pick up a history book and do some research.

If you care to display a symbol that represents the brutality and viciousness and lack of humanity that was involved in something like the slave trade, as the Confederate flag clearly does, you are entitled. The first Amendment to the Constitution allows you the freedom to display just about whatever you care to, but consider this. If you are going to fly the Stars and Bars, don't sugar coat it. Don't downplay the racial aspects and idealize the cultural aspects. They are one in the same.

Be up front and honest about your feelings. Confederacy= Hate I think would be a far more realistic bumper sticker, and as we speak I am in negotiations to have a number of said bumper stickers produced. Let us just call a spade a spade and forget about the "Heritage not Hate" nonsense. It is hateful, you know it is, and beating around the bush about it only takes away from the power of the argument. Let the responsive mud slinging commence

69 answers

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ANSWER #1 of 69

Unfortunately in this P.C. world (Political Cowardice) symbols tend to push the buttons of the ignorant - something Madison Avenue Advertising Agencies have long known, and exploited to sell more and more goods to the sheeple. I suppose an arguement can be made to remove the Arm and Hammer symbol from baking soda - since it was a Soviet icon representing the Socialist Workers. Perhaps we should also ban Native Americans from using the Swastika as well, since Adolf Hitler stole this ancient symbol and forever tarnished in our minds what it REALLY was. (The oldest form of the cross, called the Resurrection Cross - mentioned in the Holy Bible, found throughout India,
Stamped on church bells in Norway and Sweden, and representing the wings of the Healer - hell it is easier to ban out of , emotional knee-jerk response than to study, and banish from one's self, the scourge of ignorance.
As a Southerner, and descendant of Southerners who arrived in the Virginia colony
long before there was a U.S. or C.S.A. I am proud of my heritage. No one in my family tree ever owned a slave, and several of my ancestors were abolishinists and risked life and limb to aid slaves in their struggle for freedom. Slavery was an evil
forced upon the Colonies by a dictatorial King. Letters were written by our founding fathers condemning this evil, but to no avail. It was perhaps one small offense of many, that eventually led to the Declaration of Independence, and our eventual freedom from a despotic monarch. I do not condemn anyone of English heritage for flying the Union Jack, although it represent centuries of subjugation, exploitation and dominance of practically every less-advanced nation in the world. British, Dutch and Portuguese slave trafficking was the rule of law in it's day, and the rape of South and Central America by Spain, France, etc. is equalled only by the wholesale genocide
against the Native American people, perpetrated by our own country. Should we not fly the Stars and Stripes, because it "represents" conquest, betreyal and murder,
trading in slaves, invasion of foreign nations, and all the other less-than laudable facets of world history?
Because the Sparticus Party, of Rosa Luxemburg, was both Jewish and Communist, should we not allow the Israeli flag to fly...my God we could find a reason to wrongfully condemn nearly everything that is venerated by someone!
Every day we use money, that (the one dollar bill for example) features the
All-seeing-eye of the Illuminati, and the Masons, with the motto in latin "NEW WORLD ORDER" if THAT is not enough to offend you...well GO FIGURE!

(see illustration}

Favorite Illuminati Symbol: The All-Seeing Eye. New World Order Currency: The all-seeing-eye on the dollar bill. Below the illuminati pyramid/eye symbol are the words: "Novus Ordo Seclorum," which can be translated as: "A new order of the ages"

The Serpent promised Adam and Eve that their eyes would "be opened" if they ate of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. The key word in this passage is eyes, which in Hebrew can be translated "knowledge." Opened can be translated "broadened." What the Serpent promised Adam and Eve was that knowledge would be broadened if they ate of the forbidden fruit.

But the most foreboding aspect of this scripture emerges from the fact that the Hebrew word for "eyes" is not plural, but singular. What the Serpent actually told Adam and Eve was that their "eye" would be broadened by knowledge.

The "eye" that Scripture wants us to consider is not the physical organ of sight, but the eye of the mind or the soul. This singular "eye" is called the "third eye" of clairvoyance in the Hindu religion, the eye of Osiris in Egypt, and the All-Seeing Eye in Freemasonry.
(John Daniel, Scarlet and the Beast , Vol. III, pp. 6-7


ANSWER #2 of 69

*** The Confederate flag is just a blatant in-your-face racist symbol.

Most who fly it do so in the spirit of rebellion, not racism.



ANSWER #3 of 69

I love this question, I myself have asked it many times. But the only ones who fly it and/or will defend it are rednecks, so good luck getting an intellectual or logical answer. The Confederate flag is just a blatant in-your-face racist symbol.


ANSWER #4 of 69

The Civil War was absolutely about slavery. The fact is, not only was the US depending on the South's cotton crop, so was the rest of the world. Something like three fifths of the entire world supply of cotton at that time was produced in the South, and the profit margin was as high as it was because of slave labor. The South had a good thing going, and they were concerned that if slavery was abolished or contained, it would threaten Southern livelihood and force the Southern states to rely on the North economically. They would rather go to war than let this happen.

I don't have a problem with the Confederate flag being flown as a symbol of Confederate history and heritage; we can't deny that this was a part of US history, and it does represent much more than the Civil War. However, I do see why many people equate it with racism since it was the banner of a short lived nation that did condone and depend on slavery.



ANSWER #5 of 69

freedom of speech is the right to offend to say a opposing that may not be liked by someone else im not apologizing for being confederate and you should be ashamed of how nazi like you are


ANSWER #6 of 69

wolfgun

The south is a occupied nation that flag represents a nation period nothing more



ANSWER #7 of 69

wolfgun

The confederate flag is the symbol of the southern nation im not surprised imperialist wish to crush that rising nationalism by calling them racist and having a misleading account of history you guys need to understand the south is a occupied nation conquered through force then through mass northern immigration that limited the voting power of southern nationalist


ANSWER #8 of 69

Toadaly, I agree with what you are saying here. It was not that he didn't want to end slavery, but what was more important was to save the union. And that makes sense. I think at the time, although slavery was an abhoration to him, he had to deal with first things first. But it eventually became apparent he needed to deal with the slavery issue, and wanted to make sure his intent was clear, even if it was non-binding.



ANSWER #9 of 69

You said "Lincoln made it VERY CLEAR in his personal letters that he didn't care AT ALL about the issue of slavery..."

His motivation for keeping the union together and his haterd of slavery are mutally exclusive. You act as if he couldn't have felt both of these things at the same time.

You have to take into account the time period he lived in and the social conditions that existed. He was still a politician, and all politician, even the best of them, have to bend and pander. When you have institutionalized racism as it existed then, you can't expect him to say that he is going to give blacks the upperhand and expect to get elected. I am sure you can find these type of contridictory comments by every politician. It is no different today.

But you are asserting that this quote is more representative of his actual views than everything else you read about him. It was you who said it was his very clear from his PERSONAL letters what his real feeling were. So far you gave me 2 political speeches,, and nothing from his personal letters.

I agree, his personal letters would be much more indicitive of his true feelings than public comments. So show me a personal correspondence that shows that he "didn't care at all about slavery".


ANSWER #10 of 69

The civil war, like most wars, was not a single issue, but rather, a complicated mess. That's why bullets start firing - because people can't figure out what the hell is going on.

The South seceded because:
a) it felt threatened by the North that was passing legislation to prevent new slave states
b) it felt it had a right to secede

The North tacitly admitted that the South did have the right to secede by not striking preemptively. Instead, they provoked a first attack by the South to provide political cover, because even Northern states preferred the idea of State's rights.

It was only after the war had already begun, that Lincoln issued the Emancipation Proclamation - the purpose of which was to give the Northern states something to fight for. Lincoln made it very clear in his personal letters that he didn't care at all about the issue of slavery,but was instead interested in forcing the southern states back into the union by any means.


ANSWER #11 of 69

*** IMO, it's Unamerican.

It's not unamerican, it's anti-federalist. There's a big difference.


ANSWER #12 of 69

the flag just happened to be flown in times of southern racism
war is war
there are no 'good guys'
despite what the history books say...


ANSWER #13 of 69

it is still being used today as your article stated, an association with the southern heritage. I still fly my flag on occasion. I was born in louisiana. the flag represents rebelliousness, willingness to take a stand, as well as my southern heritage.
I do not believe in slavery, black slavery is over and done with.
every race and nationality of people have certain symbols of their heritage- I live in a more or less norwegian part of the country, I have seen many flags from norway.
I am a firm believer in the right to fly the confederate flag, it is not harming anyone- it has simply become just one more reason for some people to complain about.
it is time for people to just get over it- it is my right to fly a confederate flag (beneath the american flag of course).
to me it is not a racist statement, merely pride in my heritage- and the flag my forefathers fought behind in the civil war.
as I have stated in a previous thread- our ancestors have all been slaves at one period of time, or another.
should we ban the catholic church?
should we ban the following of christ in america?
remember the spanish inquisition?
some of the most evil torture devices were invented in the name of christ during that period of time.
the salem witch trials?
if you want to find atrocities, I believe that they could be found associated with most of the symbols in the world.
couldn't it be said that the american flag is offensive to those of native american heritage?
the atrocities committed in the indian wars were many- women being gutted, and having their parts displayed on hats and dress jackets. children having their heads smashed against rocks, to save bullets.
the time for this political correctness policy, as far as I am concerned, should be over.
people are becoming far too sensitive, and it seems they are just looking for something to complain about.
so if something has something negative associated with it- it should be banned, well then under those circumstances we should say good bye to the american flag, say good bye to crosses in churches, say good bye to anything roman, and oh yeah- most of our days of the week are norse in origin- we all know how brutal the vikings were ( and they kept slaves as well)- so we should rename all of those days- because they come from a slave owning society.
I do not buy any of it.
the slavery days have been over for quite some time.
there are no longer any living people who were slaves in that era.
yes I agree that slavery is/was wrong.
it is a negative time period of our history.
LETS GET OVER IT!!!
we need to band together as AMERICANS and not attack each other for our personal choices- AMERICANS ONE AND ALL- FOR THE BENIFIT OF AMERICA.
and whatever symbols we choose to associate with our heritage should be everyones right- and not subject to the complaints of easily offended people, and people who do not have the insight to look far enough back in history to see the larger picture.


ANSWER #14 of 69

autotech, a lot has happened in the last 150 years. The reason the Republican party is generally viewed as racist and the Democratic party viewed as inclusive, is not because of some liberal media conspiracy, it's because of the civil rights movement.


ANSWER #15 of 69

*** "Before the war blacks were enslaved. After the war they were free.
Was that just a coincidence?"

Jimahl, if you would be so kind, might you tell us the date the first shot was fired at Ft. Sumter, and also the date the Emancipation Proclamation was issued?


ANSWER #16 of 69

Autotech, first off, when did I call you or any black person, or even republicans stupid? No I said you were misguided. I am sure you think I am too, or maybe your just think I am stupid? As toadaly said, you can't campare either party to what they were 150 years ago. The fact is the dixiecrats abandoned the democratic party infavor of the republican party due to the civil rights movement.

You are listening to too much republican spin. Don't you get dizzy?


ANSWER #17 of 69

I guess these two men who serve in the SCV, and are proud of their slave ancesters who were willing to fight for the southern cause must be misinformed or I guess what is the word I'm looking for, oh yes a "Uncle Tom"? The truth is out there for those who really want to know. Can someone explain why the Emancipation Proclamation only applied to the southern states that succeeded from the Union and not to the slave states that stayed behind. Explore this and you will find out surprisingly when these states finally have up slavery.


ANSWER #18 of 69

ok.. Think of it this way, Hunny.. It's not HATE, it's heritage, if you dont like it, then dont fly it.. bottom line.. obvisually you've never been to the south because some BLACK PEOPLE even wear the CONFEDERATE FLAG!


ANSWER #19 of 69

You make false arguments...

No one said the confederate flag is racist because racist organizations use it. It is racist because it represents the south's struggle to keep other human beings enslaved solely due to the color of their skin.

I didn't know that there was a christian flag. But if there is one, it and the US flag do not represent enslaving people.

Yes, the US did import slaves. And then it realized the injustice of such a practice and wanted to end it. And the south chose to fight rather than give up the practice, and they did it under the confederate flag.

It is no different than neonazis flying the swastika flag.


ANSWER #20 of 69

I agree with toadaly and a few others...I Hope people will see beyond the racist thing and get a life. As said before it's not about slavery...it's about freedom!!


ANSWER #21 of 69

RIGHT ON! jimahl


ANSWER #22 of 69

Could you show me a link or website to that speech? I never really meant to place Lincoln on a pedastal. I think he was one of the worst presidents we've ever had. He actually took away more freedoms then any other president. I was just saying that Lincoln won fair and square and the south couldn't deal with law. I think what made Jefferson and Washington so great was that they were revolutionaries and actually quite brillant.


ANSWER #23 of 69

Born in raised in Florida, I myself find the confederate flag to be a symbol of racism.

that being said, each of you has failed to answer the question of WHY it is still flown today, and instead have talked about how it isnt racist.


ANSWER #24 of 69

The southerna were basically like spoiled children. They couldn't deal with change or the law. The thing that pushed them over the edge was Licoln, but he won fair and square so why did that give them the right to leave the Union? I have to agree with Sly about one thing though. The south was very beautiful before we practiced total war against it.

I think people fly the confederate flag for two reason. The first one is to show rebellious spirit and a desire to be independpent. The second is because it is kind of becoming a symbol for free speech.


ANSWER #25 of 69

what about the black confederate soldiers who bravely fought in the civil war. Were they fighting for slavery ,freedom,or their love of the SOUTH. The relatives of these BLACK CONFEDERATES still fly that same BATTLE FLAG. The north wanted control of the southern states .that is what the war was about, not slavery. The south was rich and beautiful before the greed of power of the north destoryed it. READ the real history.


ANSWER #26 of 69

I am in total agreement-ridgerunner.
perhaps the slavery issues that should be addressed today are PROSTITUTION, and DRUG ADDICTION, and the symbols that represent that part of our culture.
what the anti-confederate flag movement is truly talking about is censorship, and that is an evil wheel to start rolling, once it starts nothing is sacred enough to be protected.
I'm with LOWPROFILE, and I will continue to fly my flag.


ANSWER #27 of 69

Stop being part of the lost cause Gary. One of the biggest reasons for the war was slavery. Several prominent confederate politicians even said as much. It was only after the war that this whole idea of state's rights started showing up.


ANSWER #28 of 69

yes, but the question related as to why the flag is still used and to that answer it is a "veiled" racial slur. white power, etc.


ANSWER #29 of 69

The point was not meant that Lincoln had no preference in regard to slavery, but rather, that his motivation was keeping the Union together, not the ending of slavery. He flip flopped so much on slavery it's hard to tell what his personal preference was. The one thing he was not ambiguous about, was his willingness to use the issue to keep the Union together, which was his only priority.

1858
"I will say, then, that I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races; that I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of making voters or jurors of negroes, nor qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people...

And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while they do remain together
there must be the position of superior and inferior, and I as much as any other man am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race."

1st inaugural address
"No amendment shall be made to the Constitution which will authorize or give to Congress the power to abolish or interfere, within any State, with the domestic institutions thereof, including that of persons held to labor or service by the laws of said State. "


ANSWER #30 of 69

I am not defending southern slavery nor do I think it was right then or now. the topic was about the flag and that the flag stands for slavery and that is not correct. discrimination is still going on to this day and it is being done by the federal goverenment and select state governments.


ANSWER #31 of 69

I already admitted I mistated the point I was trying to make, what more do you want?


ANSWER #32 of 69

IMO, it's Unamerican. And it may offend someone else, may not offend you. Why take the chance?


ANSWER #33 of 69

So now I'm misguided because I belong to the SCV, and happen to be a republican. Yes I guess its time for me to come clean. The picture shown is my Grandfather on the left and I'm (the pretty one) on the right. I don't call myself an African-American because I don't have dual citizenship. I am an American! I was born in the South less than 40 miles from where my Great-Great Grandfather was a slave. His name was Hackney Eatman and he served in Co. B 10th South Carolina Infantry until he lost his left arm from a motar round in 1864. His master, James Eatman served served right along side him, and when my GG Grandfather was injured, he was allowed to return home where his master's wife nursed him back to health. At the wars end James Eatman told him that he was no longer his master and he was free to go. My GG Grandfather said he could never leave a man who had taken such go care of him and he stayed on the farm with his own wife and children until his death in 1893. When the SCV was first created in 1896 my Great Grandfather joined on behalf of his father. There is no doubt that when my son is old enough he too will join. I do not feel in any kind of way misguided by what the SCV has shown me. I feel misguided and let down by the liberal teachens in the public schools that say as a black man I should hate the south for what they did to my family. I don't know about you but I've worked hard for what I have and I don't need somebody telling me that I'm misguided just because I stand up for what I know is right and that is you can make any symbol a racist symbol. The confederate flag that I'm holding was never even the nations flag. It was the flag of Tennessee, and was only used in battle. jimahl, you eluded to the strong fact when you said that the targeted states in the EP was probably political. There is no doubt the war was political. If it had been truly over slavery then why was Delaware allowed to reject the 13th admendment (the law that freed the slaves) until 1901? Like you said jimahl it wasn't over slavery it was politcal!


ANSWER #34 of 69

First of all, the "Stars and Bars" that people commonly refer to as he "Confederate Flag"
is not...it is the Confederate Battle Flag -flown by the Confederate Army during the War Between the States, commonly referred to as the "Civil War" (Although there is nothing civil about ANY war). The actual Confederate Flag is completely different - check Wikipedia, or similar sites to view the correct flag. The Battle flag, is not a symbol of
racism, slavery, or anything else of this nature...remember that the war was NOT fought over the issue of slavery. Less than three percent of Southerners owned slaves, and slavery bagan in the Union States (hence the term "Yankee Slaver") The war was fought over tariffs imppsed upon the Southern States, by the North. All raw materials had to come first into a Yankee port, and be taxed in excise, and all manufactured goods, cotton, rice, etc, had to be taxed again, before being exported from the Southern States. Slavery was on it's way out, and was reprehensible to most persons Northern or Southern. The South seceded from the Union -desiring to be self governed rather than be taxed to death, and regulated by Washington D.C.
and the inherent bureaucracy with all it's all to well known shortcomings. Thus began the bloodiest war in our Nation's history. Lincoln never freed any slaves - another myth. As President of the U.S. he had power and authority to free slaves in the Union States, but by then there were no more slaves in the North. He had no authority to free anyone in an enemy country during a war. The President of the Confederate States was Jefferson Davis, and only he could have "freed" anyone within the bounds of his jurisdiction. The Discovery channel did a series on the facts surrounding the civil war, putting to bed most of the myths. The reason for the Confederate Battle Flag will become obvious upon viewing the images: The Confederate Flag was too similar to the Union Stars and Stripes - and soldiers got confused in battle, and mistakes occurred between friend or enemy. So the new flag was instituted for the military, so the sides could tell each other apart. Remember that like the Revolutionary war, this war was fought mostly by Militia, and every Militia had different uniforms, both U.S. and C.S.A. so battles could become quite confusing!


ANSWER #35 of 69

jimahl, I must ask you this question...Why does the Democratic/Liberal Party Think Blacks Are Stupid?
I find liberals almost immediately respond to me just as you have, as if I'm unable to read history and make a rational decision on my own. I have always listened to both sides and attempted to make a well informed logical decision based on the facts.
To be open minded I will read liberal newspapers, and I find over and over articles that prove Democrats want to continue the political anomaly where the Democratic Party takes the black vote for granted. The primary method used by the Democrats is to falsely accuse the Republican Party of being “anti-black.”
Given the commendable civil rights record of the Republican Party that was started in 1854 as the anti-slavery party, as well as the current policies and actions by Republicans to help blacks prosper, the accusation that the Republican Party is “anti-black” is ludicrous on its face.
History shows that the Democratic Party is the party of the four S’s: Slavery, Secession, Segregation, and now Socialism. The Democratic Party has hijacked the civil rights record of the Republican Party and taken blacks down the path of Socialism that has turned our black communities run by Democrats for the past 40 years into economic and social wastelands.
Considering the horrendous record of racism and “anti-black” Socialist policies of the Democratic Party, the question becomes, how do Democrats keep blacks voting overwhelmingly for a party that has caused so much harm to blacks?
With the help of the liberal media, Democrats use a combination of deception, hypocrisy, and re-writing of history to paint the Republican Party as a racist party, causing blacks to cast a protest vote against Republicans, not a vote for Democrats.

Based on what you have said so far in responces to me I beginning to wonder if maybe you feel blacks are unable to think for themselves and need the liberals to lead us around like dare I say SLAVES. Well sir I'm no slave to any party and I can certainly read and make decisions based off of factual history. Careful with your responces because you are beginning to seem a little racial.


ANSWER #36 of 69

Toadaly, You are just making asumptions about Lincolns motives. To say his personal feeling are irrelevant at the same time as implying motives you have know way of knowing is a bit disingenuos. Of course he was making decisions based on politics. He was trying to hold the country together and trying to reduce the bloodshed. And I know there were two proclamations, one to all the confederate states, and one that named them directly. And yes it was non-binding, but he certainly could do nothing about getting a constitutional amendment passed during the war.

Autotech, my response still stands. In my opinion, claiming that the civil war had nothing to do with slavery, and being a republican, are being misguided. I am obviously a liberal, and proud to make that claim. I think anyone subscribing to conservtive ideology is misguided. Your being black has nothing to do with that opinion. Wanting to celebrate your family history and heritage is great, but how a black man would want to honor that heritage by arguing that southerners really weren't all that bad as slavemasters does boggle my mind.

Butterflydreams, it is not flown to show pride in confederate soldiers, except maybe in some re-enactment camps. But most commonly is flown now is as a racist symbol. For example, when south carolina voted to remove the flag from the top of statehouse in 2000, many argued that it was just representing southern heritage. The problem with that is, they didn't start flying it on top of the statehouse until 1962 and the reason they did that was to show their opposition to desegragation, and the civil rights movement.

So yes, it is about hate, not heritage.


ANSWER #37 of 69

The Emancipation Proclamation was proclaimed three years into the war. The slaveholding states not seceeding were not a part of emancipation. As ridgerunner has already said the tariffs on English goods unfairly impacted southern agrarians who shipped their raw materials to England as well as the North and who would ultimately suffer from a smaller market which was advantagious to the northern industrialists. The Northern industrialists sought to claim cheap raw materials, cheap labor, and to halter English competition of finished goods. The seceeding states regarded Northern acts as Federalism and anathema to Southern belief in Anti-federalism. The freeing of the slaves only served to capture wage slaves for the Industrial sweatshops. So to many southerners the rebel flag is a warning to a overreaching federal government. And in the days of Patriot Acts and Military Commission Acts its symbolism is warranted, and perhaps wanted.

I know this answer will not suit the short sighted here who believe Honest Abe should be tutoring Christ on how to lead a good life. If you are one of those short bus riders, this insincere answer may satiate: The Rebel Flag sux, southern people suk, we apologize for not laying down in the face of tyranny, northerners freed the slaves because they loved them with all their hearts, please kill us, we are not fit to live.


ANSWER #38 of 69

It is amazing reading these posts how americans believe what they hear and our to lazy to do proper research to find the truth or maybe they are scare of the truth. I have read that the question why the confederate flag is being flown? has not been answered, but the question has been answered many times, It is just not the answer you want to here. Slavery had nothing to do with the civil war nor did the flag.
It was about states rights and let me make myself clear it was about the southern states wanting to sell cotton and other crops to people outside of the 13 colonies, like europe. the northern states ( Mainly those forming the start of the federal government) wanted the south to sell it to the northern states first and they would sell it to europe so they could make some money. As always like it is today the government wants our money but they do not want to do any labor to get it. That is what started the civil war. Please do not take my word for it look it up. there is an old saying who ever wins the war, writes the history. The government is lying to everyone in the history books, but the real truth is out there.


ANSWER #39 of 69

Toadaly, You are just making asumptions about Lincolns motives. To say his personal feeling are irrelevant at the same time as implying motives you have know way of knowing is a bit disingenuos. Of course he was making decisions based on politics. He was trying to hold the country together and trying to reduce the bloodshed. And I know there were two proclamations, one to all the confederate states, and one that named them directly. And yes it was non-binding, but he certainly could do nothing about getting a constitutional amendment passed during the war.

Autotech, my response still stands. In my opinion, claiming that the civil war had nothing to do with slavery, and being a republican, are being misguided. I am obviously a liberal, and proud to make that claim. I think anyone subscribing to conservtive ideology is misguided. Your being black has nothing to do with that opinion. Wanting to celebrate your family history and heritage is great, but how a black man would want to honor that heritage by arguing that southerners really weren't all that bad as slavemasters does boggle my mind.

Butterflydreams, it is not flown to show pride in confederate soldiers, except maybe in some re-enactment camps. But most commonly is flown now is as a racist symbol. For example, when south carolina voted to remove the flag from the top of statehouse in 2000, many argued that it was just representing southern heritage. The problem with that is, they didn't start flying it on top of the statehouse until 1962 and the reason they did that was to show their opposition to desegragation, and the civil rights movement.

So yes, it is about hate, not heritage.


ANSWER #40 of 69

* * * THE FIRST CASUALTY IN WAR IS TRUTH * * *
Let us start fresh and have a true definition of the term "civil war". A civil war is an internal revolt, between two parts of one nation. Yet, the conflict that bears the name of American Civil War was really a war that occurred between two independent nations. The Southern states were only exercising it's constitutional right to secede. Plain and simple. To be called a "civil war" actually implies that the South was never separate or independent.

A very interesting fact on slavery is that at the time the civil war officially commenced in 1861, the southern states were actually in the process of freeing all slaves in the South. Russia had freed it's servants in 1860, and the south took great note of this. Had military intervention not been forced upon the South, a very different America would have been realized then as well as now. Interesting, isn't it?? Read on...
Another lesser known fact is that martyred President Abraham Lincoln was fervently making plans to send all freed slaves to the jungles of Central America once the war was over. Knowing that African society would never allow the slaves to return back to Africa, Lincoln also did not want the slaves in the US. He thought the jungles of Central America would be the best solution and conducive to the freed slaves best interest. The only thing that kept this from happening, was his assassination. I bet you were never taught that in school.


ANSWER #41 of 69

jimahl, if the war was really just about slavery, then why did Lincoln wait a year and half from the point the war started until the point slaves were actually set free? Why was that not done BEFORE the war even started, or at a minimum, immediately after it started?


ANSWER #42 of 69

toadaly: First off, I never said slavery was the one and only reason. You can parse it however you like, economic reasons, northern trade issues, but they all come down to the practice of slavery. While I am no expert, I am sure there were many reasons he didn't do it immediately. I am sure he was still working on ending the war with as little bloodshed as possible, and was attempting diplomatic solutions, but eventually realized the south would never capitulate, and went ahead and issued the proclamation. There is no doubt about Lincoln's utter disgust with the practice, so I am not sure what you are suggesting.

autotech: Is that picture supposed to prove something? I am not impressed. One can be completely misguided regardless of race. Look at how many black republicans there are. Not sure exactly the reasoning behind the targeted states in the EP, but it was probably political. It certainly doesn't prove that the civil war had nothing to do with slavery, as some southerners will have you believe.


ANSWER #43 of 69

jimahl, I have not assumed anything about Lincoln's position on slavery per se, you're the one doing that. I'm arguing that his motives in the civil war were 100% about saving the Union. Whatever his feelings on slavery were, is incidental.

How do I know, because he said so himself in his letter to Horace Greeley, Aug. 22 1862:

I would save the Union. I would save it the shortest way under the Constitution. The sooner the national authority can be restored; the nearer the Union will be "the Union as it was." ... My paramount object in this struggle is to save the Union, and is not either to save or to destroy slavery. If I could save the Union without freeing any slave I would do it, and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone I would also do that.

His words paralled his actions, so they seem a fair assesment of his position.


ANSWER #44 of 69

Before you place Mr. Lincoln upon too high of a pedestal, you should consider the speech he made to a group of industrialists, shortly after his famous Emancipation Proclamation: "Nothing I have said with respect to the freeing of slaves should
be construed to infer that I believe the negro to be the equal of the
white man.
The two races are dissimilar in mein and deportment, and shall never
live together in peace. Should it come to one or the other, as a white
man, I have no hesitation in choosing my race over theirs."
Ahh. but with time..we forget that which is inconvenient, and place upon pedestals
those individuals who would merit a much lesser measure of esteem in their own times. Learn about Washington, Jackson, Lincoln et al...they were no more or less than the politicians of today. In time the world may forget Bill Clinton's treason, and sexual escapades..and one day "Slick Willie" may even appear upon our Currency

" He who does not learn the lessons of history is destined to repeat them"
-Karl Marx-


ANSWER #45 of 69

toadaly: First off, I never said slavery was the one and only reason. You can parse it however you like, economic reasons, northern trade issues, but they all come down to the practice of slavery. While I am no expert, I am sure there were many reasons he didn't do it immediately. I am sure he was still working on ending the war with as little bloodshed as possible, and was attempting diplomatic solutions, but eventually realized the south would never capitulate, and went ahead and issued the proclamation. There is no doubt about Lincoln's utter disgust with the practice, so I am not sure what you are suggesting.

autotech: Is that picture supposed to prove something? I am not impressed. One can be completely misguided regardless of race. Look at how many black republicans there are. Not sure exactly the reasoning behind the targeted states in the EP, but it was probably political. It certainly doesn't prove that the civil war had nothing to do with slavery, as some southerners will have you believe.


ANSWER #46 of 69

I think people goes over board with this issue..I have one on my class ring and im NOT raciest...I dont view it as a slavery symbol...actually I started likin teh falg when I started to watch the dukes of hazard and they use it b/c of the south...im form the south and im proud to be...how many years ago was this...seriously let the past be the past and like one said there is some blacks that were the confederate flag...and not all people that has it uses it for the slavery thing...I dont..yes I know some do but NOT ALL do...and like vultureofculture said the north is just as "bad" as the south...theres nothing good bout any of it...confedeerate flag stands to me as rebel...as in ill do and say what I want...like I said dukes of hazard...duke boys...thats how I view it..but we all view it dofferently...so what if it offends someone...chrisitans is ALWAYS offended and nobody cares...im tired of that its so wrong for everyone is to be offended but if its the chrisitans ot dont matter...if us christians can take it...then I think you can take it over a flaf that has strips and few stars


ANSWER #47 of 69

If the Confederate flag is a racist flag due to being used by racist organizations like the KKK then so is the Christian flag and the flag of the good ol USA. I have seen numerous photos the clansmen holding these other flags at their rallies but yet I hear no one trying to ban them from public view. Also remember that there was never a slave ship to leave Africa that flew the Confederate flag because the Confederacy didn't import slaves the U.S. did.


ANSWER #48 of 69

It is still flown today to show pride for the confederate soldiers that gave their lives to try to stay seperate from the union. Most of those soldiers were husbands, sons, grandsons, ect. They were of both white and black race. It stands to say American by birth...Union by force...Southern by the grace of God.


ANSWER #49 of 69

That didn't really answer the question, which was why it is still being used today.


ANSWER #50 of 69

Excellent post ridge runner!


ANSWER #51 of 69

spartan512, you have no southern pride. you live in ohio.


ANSWER #52 of 69

the south should not be proud of it's heritage of slavery.


ANSWER #53 of 69

Fort Sumter - Jan 9, 1961
Emancipation Proclamation - September 22, 1962
Why?

Autotech: Your "very interesting fact on slavery" is any but fact.

TJ859: I do realize that the swastika was adopted by the nazis and they did not create. The point was what it sybolizes today, and anyone displaying it today would be assumed to be supportive of nazi policies.


ANSWER #54 of 69

Nothing, thanks.


ANSWER #55 of 69

The answer you gave goes right along with what the secular progressives would have you to believe. Always remember that to the victor goes the spoils, and one of those spoils is having the freedom to write history so that the south looks like back-woods toothless illiterates who wanted nothing more but to sit around and sip on mint jullips and watch slaves work. In the national archives of Washington D.C. sit documents on top of documents that disprove the belief that the institution of slavery in the south was the reason for the war of northern aggression. Look carefully at what the north was attempting to do to the south with tariffs and you will see the underlying reason very clear. I can understand you not knowing there is a Christian Flag, typically only Christians know about it, and usually there is one on display is true Christian churches.


ANSWER #56 of 69

It would appear that most of us agree that the Confederate flag is not a flag of hate, no more than the U.S. flag or the Christian flag is. It also seems that most of us understand that no flag has ever held anyone in bondage just like no gun alone kills someone. It takes a person behind it to do this. I totally disagree with the institution of slavery and to what it did to my people. I however understand that the South was a pawn in a much larger scheme of things, and until the truth is finally told people both black and white will continue to believe the war was fought over slavery. God bless the USA, but at the same time God bless those men in gray who were willing to stand up for what they believed in (States rights and the freedom from a tyrannies government).


ANSWER #57 of 69

To understand the flag of the confederacy is to understand nationalism and patriotism. The people of the south believe they are a nation that flag represents that nation. Us northerners may not like the fact the conquered want their homeland back same goes for indians and any other nation the USA conquered and annexed. I have to ask stop making a flag a symbol of a political debate of 1865 that flag is the souths national flag just as the us flag is our saying they should not be able to fly that flag because of a political debate is cruel and unjust they are americans until the day they can liberate themselves. We should treat them with respect and let by gones be by gones slavery is over and research that government.


ANSWER #58 of 69

Clearly you are lost, As to the several prominent confederate politicians you noted in your post the first thing you should already know is you can not believe anything a politician saids. They say anything to move their agenda foward. since I have not seen what you are referring to can you provide me with that imformation. How can states rights show up after the war, when it is clearly the reason for the war. since you can not or will not do the proper research to find the imformation I will look it up for you as soon as I get time.


ANSWER #59 of 69

Gary, you are living in a fantasy world. Yes, the underlying reason for all war is economics. But it was the economics of slavery that was at the root of the civil war. Are you really trying to say that the south wasn't fighting for the right to own slaves? Why then did the federal government have to occupy the south during reconstruction. To enfoce the 12th, 13th, and 14th ammendments. And what happened when the federal government pulled out? Jim Crow, and the next generation of slavery.

Go ahead, keep defending southern racism. It just shows you for the fool you are.


ANSWER #60 of 69

Do I hear banjo music?

The war of northern agression. I love that one. Rationalize it all you want. Denial aint just a river in egypt.

Before the war blacks were enslaved. After the war they were free.
Was that just a coincidence?

If the war never happened, would the south have given up slavery?

And is this christian flag for all christians, or just those who want to defend slavery?


ANSWER #61 of 69

It's still flown today, because many people in the south would prefer to be independent from Washington. Don't make the mistake of confusing a government with the land it governs. It's possible to love our land, our people, our culture, etc., and yet also think that independence from the US federal government would be a good thing.

The Confederate flag is not about slavery, it's about a desire for independence from Washington.


ANSWER #62 of 69

Old question I know, but had to chime in. The confederate flag is absolutely a symbol of slavery and southern racism. And anyone who wants to claim some kind of heritage crap to justify flying it is either extermey ignorant about what it realy means, or a racist.

The only value it has is historical, just like the nazi swastika, as a symbol of something evil that should never happen again. Southerners should be ashamed of that part of their heritage, not proudly displaying it.


ANSWER #63 of 69

the "rebel" flag is still used as a reminder to people of the south's "pride". living in the south, I have found that it is used most often in areas where it will be a constant reminder to african americans. most of the people that I have seen displaying the "rebel" flag are rednecks.the flag offends, it should not be a source of pride.


ANSWER #64 of 69

people who use the flag as a raceist issue, are the type of people who are looking to get something for nothing, cause there to lazy to work, so they live off the goverment and have 50 kids for everybody body else to pay taxes on to support there soorry as-. why do I say this... if you cant look up the history and know why that flag flew, and what it stands for
well I guess you would have to blame it on something and then blame your life and everything that goes wrong on somebody else.
ill fly mine with pride and put anybody who says different in there place


ANSWER #65 of 69

Although slavery was a major factor in the formation of the Confederacy, and was ultimately the reason for tensions between North and South, the secession and the war were ultimately about state's rights vs. federal rights. Keep in mind that slavery was not illegal at the time the Confederacy seceded, nor was there an imminent threat of that happening. The emancipation proclamation was issued AFTER the war had begun.


ANSWER #66 of 69

Whether Lincoln was truly disgusted by the practice of slavery or not really isn't very relevant (nor is it uncontested).

His purpose behind the Emancipation Proclomation was a political ploy to motivate the South to give up, not to free slaves, since it only freed slaves in regions controlled by the South. Further, it was a nonbinding Presidential order (two orders more precisely). Slavery was not actually abolished until late 1865, after the war ended, and after Lincoln had been assassinated.


ANSWER #67 of 69

zmarsh, note that there is nothing in the Constitution to keep a state from exiting the union - not then, and not today either. The southern states believed they had a right to secede, and Lincoln basically acknowledged that by waiting for them to fire the first shot.

If they had not stupidly fired at Ft. Sumner, the Confederacy might still exist today.


ANSWER #68 of 69

I'd fly it, proud too. Johnny Rebel said it right:

"Lately you're yelling 'bout our rebel flag
Wantin' us to take it down
It represents our history and southern pride
And rebel blood on the ground"

tell you what, you keep asking for stuff and it's pissing me off. Why don't you just let people express their pride in the way they want?


ANSWER #69 of 69

You are wrong toadaly. He was always anti-slavery. Initially his view of the issue was to make sure that slavery didn't expoand to any new, but he clearly was an abolishionist proir to becoming president.

Here are some quotes:
___
March 3, 1837

The following protest was presented to the House, which was read and ordered to be spread on the journals, to wit:

"Resolutions upon the subject of domestic slavery having passed both branches of the General Assembly at its present session, the undersigned hereby protest against the passage of the same.

They believe that the institution of slavery is founded on both injustice and bad policy; but that the promulgation of abolition doctrines tends rather to increase than to abate its evils.

They believe that the Congress of the United States has no power, under the constitution, to interfere with the institution of slavery in the different States.

They believe that the Congress of the United States has the power, under the constitution, to abolish slavery in the District of Columbia; but that that power ought not to be exercised unless at the request of the people of said District.

The difference between these opinions and those contained in the said resolutions, is their reason for entering this protest."

Dan Stone,
A. Lincoln,
Representatives from the county of Sangamon
___

In a letter to his friend Joshua Speed, Lincoln freely expressed his hatred of slavery but he did not recommend immediate emancipation.

August 24, 1855

You know I dislike slavery; and you fully admit the abstract wrong of it. So far there is no cause of difference. But you say that sooner than yield your legal right to the slave -- especially at the bidding of those who are not themselves interested, you would see the Union dissolved. I am not aware that any one is bidding you to yield that right; very certainly I am not. I leave that matter entirely to yourself. I also acknowledge your rights and my obligations, under the constitution, in regard to your slaves. I confess I hate to see the poor creatures hunted down, and caught, and carried back to their stripes, and unrewarded toils; but I bite my lip and keep quiet. In 1841 you and I had together a tedious low-water trip, on a Steam Boat from Louisville to St. Louis. You may remember, as I well do, that from Louisville to the mouth of the Ohio there were, on board, ten or a dozen slaves, shackled together with irons. That sight was a continual torment to me; and I see something like it every time I touch the Ohio, or any other slave-border. It is hardly fair to you to assume, that I have no interest in a thing which has, and continually exercises, the power of making me miserable. You ought rather to appreciate how much the great body of the Northern people do crucify their feelings, in order to maintain their loyalty to the constitution and the Union.

I do oppose the extension of slavery, because my judgment and feelings so prompt me; and I am under no obligation to the contrary.
___

Lincoln often encountered views supporting slavery. In this fragment, he countered the arguments that slavery was justified based on color and intellect.

July 1, 1854
Fragment on Slavery

If A. can prove, however conclusively, that he may, of right, enslave B. -- why may not B. snatch the same argument, and prove equally, that he may enslave A?--

You say A. is white, and B. is black. It is color, then; the lighter, having the right to enslave the darker? Take care. By this rule, you are to be slave to the first man you meet, with a fairer skin than your own.

You do not mean color exactly?--You mean the whites are intellectually the superiors of the blacks, and, therefore have the right to enslave them? Take care again. By this rule, you are to be slave to the first man you meet, with an intellect superior to your own.

But, say you, it is a question of interest; and, if you can make it your interest, you have the right to enslave another. Very well. And if he can make it his interest, he has the right to enslave you.
___

Speech at Peoria, Illinois
October 16, 1854

I can not but hate [the declared indifference for slavery's spread]. I hate it because of the monstrous injustice of slavery itself. I hate it because it deprives our republican example of its just influence in the world -- enables the enemies of free institutions, with plausibility, to taunt us as hypocrites -- causes the real friends of freedom to doubt our sincerity, and especially because it forces so many really good men amongst ourselves into an open war with the very fundamental principles of civil liberty -- criticising [sic] the Declaration of Independence, and insisting that there is no right principle of action but self-interest.
___

Speech at Chicago, Illinois
July 10, 1858

I have always hated slavery, I think as much as any Abolitionist. I have been an Old Line Whig. I have always hated it, but I have always been quiet about it until this new era of the introduction of the Nebraska Bill began. I always believed that everybody was against it, and that it was in course of ultimate extinction.

I have said a hundred times, and I have now no inclination to take it back, that I believe there is no right, and ought to be no inclination in the people of the free States to enter into the slave States, and interfere with the question of slavery at all.
___

Fifth Debate with Stephen A. Douglas
Galesburg, Illinois
October 7, 1858

Judge Douglas, and whoever like him teaches that the negro has no share, humble though it may be, in the Declaration of Independence, is going back to the era of our liberty and independence, and so far as in him lies, muzzling the cannon that thunders its annual joyous return; that he is blowing out the moral lights around us; when he contends that whoever wants slaves has a right to hold them; that he is penetrating, so far as lies in his power, the human soul, and eradicating the light of reason and the love of liberty, when he is in every possible way preparing the public mind, by his vast influence, for making the institution of slavery perpetual and national.
___

There are a lot more of these quotes. I think they clearly show that Lincoln always abhored the practice of slavery.


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