Did God create such entities as the AIDS virus?
We're adults, and just as I give my sons responsibility in order to let them grow up, we have reponsiblity for our own actions. I believe our actions are overseen by our loving and all-powerful God, but that He's not continually messing with our lives - I know you don't want Him to do that, and He doesn't.
He has responsiblity, it's true. But that responsiblity is passed to us so that we can act out our free will, because being automata is not what we want, and not what God made us for. The same with my sons. I have to given them space to 'be themselves', and to learn for themselves to 'treat others as you want to be treated'. Lots of teaching but not much 'control'.
Well, I do think that people of goodwill are following many of the teachings of Jesus! Filletofspam and Ghandi, to quote two illustrious but rather varied non-Christians, both speak positively of the teachings of Jesus. Admiring and sharing some of the same goals as Jesus is not following God, though, so I'm claiming that people of good will do a lot of God's will, although they don't choose to follow Him. Does that sound reasonable?
Another thought relating to those who say God could 'alleviate suffering with no effort, but doesn't': How do you want us to die? We do need to die, it's part of the way nature works as I've already said. It's my fault as much as anyone else's that people in poverty are dying prematurely around the world, and that's where I say people are letting God and each other down. But I need to die some day and so do you, and whilst I hope that medicine will make it reasonably bearable, it does need to happen. The arguments above almost begin to imply that God should be stopping death altogether because it's not fair on us. My mum is partly recovering from a third cancer operation, when she nearly died. I am seeing the suffering you're talking about first hand, but neither she nor I expect God to somehow make it otherwise. It is the way things are, and having God and our families around us is actually making it pretty special, rather than unfair.
I kind of dont believe there is a god its possible but I think liver cancer is the worst of all! it is what killed my 2 mommy (who was my favorite teacher) did god write the bible or did people write the bible? well when the people saw and heard about things that were happening did they write down the right things? I think some one else wrote them down and then said god wrote it... but how could you tell who created the heavens and the earth? when we die do we really go to a magical land that we cant see but has nothing wrong with it? and you are happy all the time? or does your brain go nowhere? does "god" really capture your sole when you go? I dont know but "god" didnt save my teacher she would have still been here and "god" would have kept her alive so I dont believe "GOD" I believe in my teacher! I know that sounds a little wacky but I saw my teacher and now she is gone so I guess I can believe she is "GOD" and you would too! if you knew her! so thats my wacky story and dont worry I am just throwing almost everything I know about this as fast as I can so dont judge me... and I am jewish so I may have a different bible that you and I might say more things that are wacky! and off the wall but thats just my and probably only MY jewish thing talking K? byee
theres a consequence for everythin, if people would had saves sex for marriage and with only one person, we wouldn have aids, but since people could not control themselves this is what we got...God created everythin, includin satan, he was in heaven until god kicked him out, b/c he wanted to rule over everythin and destroy all, and as its been said, we have a responsibility, and well some failed, we all do, however, some worse than others, which in ALL failures come a consequence, God has to punish us when we do wrong, its like punishin your kid when you say dont go there and your kid goes, youpunish them for not doin what you said or asked, God told us, some didnt lisen and started havin sex with other people and now we suffer comsequences...people back then should had listened and people need to listen today...
I believe God creates through evolution, and has created the mechanisms which go on to produce new diseases. It doesn't seem cruel to me - are we blaming Mother Nature? In that sense I guess God is Mother/Father Nature. We all know the facile yet logical arguments that without disease animals and people would not die and make way for new generations... It's not cruel, it's how nature works.
The AIDS virus was not 'created as a punisment' or anything like that, but came into existence through a number of natural and man-made events (man-made such as eating monkeys for instance - not evil, but not a good idea it now seems). The evil involved in it comes from people thoughtlessly or even wilfully continuing to transmit it, and others failing to care for or provide treatments from those who suffer from it.
It is not my god either Floss. The magic wand however, is indeed what I would be looking for. Not for when it suits me - I do not live with such illusions, but because millions of people could do with that magic wand without DELAY and hope for it (it is my opinion the bible expresses promises that suggest a potent divine performance in that direction)! And I believe that he hasn't got one!
The notion that God is an awful lot bigger than our boxes is the tragedy of faith; the source of all confusion about God's refusal to wave that wand. There seem to be an incompleteness in god's story, and the bigger-than-box notion seems to have generated a prominent self-imposed unwillingness of the faithful to investigate why there is no magic wand. Especially amongst christians.
I refuse to be part of that!
there is an omniscient creator god who poofed all lifeforms into existence. This god is then culpable for AIDS
there is an omniscient creator god who got everything started, and then let evolution take over. Since he knew AIDS would come about when he got things started, he is culpable for AIDS
there are multiple creator gods and one of the mean ones created AIDS, but the nice one only created people, bunny rabbits, and butterflies. The mean one is responsible for AIDS, and the nice one is responsible for making people susceptible to AIDS
there are one or more creator gods, but they're not omnicient or omnipotent, didn't know how things would turn out, and can't stop it. They're just omni-incompetant oafs.
there are no gods
Take your pick.
Floss, a benevolent and omnipotent creator can not be anything but responsible for the concept of his creation and all its consequential events.
If you design a car without brakes and people die as a result of your creation, it would not release you from your responsibilities towards those people by saying that they should have installed proper brakes before they drove your car. Instead you will most likely end up in jail.
Further, drivers have a choice to drive your car or not. In the scenario of the benevolent -and-omnipotent-god-creation idea, people do not have the choice but to live within that creation and will therefor be confronted with hidden traps consciously set by the benevolent and omnipotent creator. That I find that cruel!
flossheal: No, it only works if the god you believe in is supposed to be both benevolent and omnipotent - which the god of the bible is. How is it not cruel to leave humans - many of them innocent - to suffer and die horribly when it could all be prevented with the most trivial effort on god's part? Why would god create or allow to be created such things as malaria, the candiru fish and other things that make human life miserable, seemingly without referfence to the people they afflict?
"Why should God have arranged the course of evolution so that human life is simple and painless? It's a rather anthropocentric view."
The christian view is generally that god created the entire universe for us. That seems a great deal more anthropocentric.
Which God? I'll asume you mean the biblical.
Well. didn't God creat everything? Even to those people who might say Satain did it, God created Satin. So the answer is yes he did creat AID's too. Is God cruel? Depends what you believe, I'ld say yeah. He burns people in hell for all eternity, his own creations. & for those who might say "well you were sinful in your life"," you didn't follow god" blah blah blah, God knew us before we were born, he stitched us together in the womb knowing what we would become, so why didn't he stop? He made us knowing the way we were going to turn out then condem us to hell. Wouldn't that classify as cruel to you?
Floss, I agree. I hope however, that you do not suggest that non-christian people of general goodwill towards fellow humans actually are following God without being aware of it.
Could it be that many christians happen to follow the same path as many non-christian good willing people? Goodness is not a uniquely christian.
Further, there are too many christians (and other believers) who have no other hope left than that wave of the divine magic wand. Especially in places where good willing fellow humans are not at hand or personal resources are used up. Can't we give God SOME responsibility?!
Hey ohsounique (love your nickname), I was just reminded by someone who presented herself as a christian that God burned down a city or two to deal with a couple of 'free wills' himself. The direct approach, no devil involved. Burning cities? Do you know how CRUEL that is?
Since you brought up the Eden affair... was that also not a bit of a nasty business? Tempting two vulnerable creatures with a magic fruit that would provide them with the wisdom they needed not to fall for the tricks and hidden traps created by a superior deity? That reeks of bullying. Intolerable behavior!
Arachnid, your argument only works if you think that life is meant to be easy. I can't see anything in nature or in the Bible which suggests that's the case! These things happen, they're not cruelty, they're just the way things are. God has created them, but not to be cruel. Internal parasites, for one little example, reduce our tendency to allergies and skin problems. They're not CRUEL, they just ARE.
Why should God have arranged the course of evolution so that human life is simple and painless? It's a rather anthropocentric view.
nooo!!! GOD - 1- z one who crated us to show us how beautiful our world is. - 2 - z one who gave us a free will to do any thing. - 3- z one who is patient to see whn his crature do all z bad things. - 4 - z one who came 2 zis world through his son JESUS to show us how to live and love our friends. - 5 - zonly one who still loves us wz all our sins. ETC... MAY Z LOVE AND MERCY OF ALMIGHTY JESUS BE WZ U!!!
The traditonal Christian view is indeed far too anthropocentric - I'm just surprised to find a less traditional thinker still sticking to it, that's all. There are things that kill us horribly or make us suffer in life, but humans have incredible skill to overcome those illnesses, poisons etc. The fact is that most of us choose to put our own short term comfort above putting money, political effort or research into ending those problems. I don't blame God for them, I largely blame the human race of which I am a part.
I am truly sorry about your mum allmeroth. And I hope that you will find a way to live your own life without her. I am sure that you can. As it so happened, I lost my own mother as a result of cancer too. She did not believe in a god and I think that that provided a helpful level of comfort during her suffering by not having to wonder about why God had this in store for her. I still admire her strength and courage to see life as it is and not to waste a moment with irrational occupations.
Thanks for so much clarity toadaly. Even omni-incompetant oafs can be hold justifiably responsible for appalling concoctions like AIDS. But it seems not easy to find people who believe in the existence of any god, and have the courage to hold that god responsible for all the cruelty he committed (imaginary or actual, oaf or almighty) .
Ever since Jesus Christ gained victory over Jupiter, the faithful lost the will to criticize what they worship.
God DID create Satan, but Satan was once an Archangel in Heaven. Now that Satan's pure evil, he tries to destroy all God's people, which CAN mean that he can make a perfectly healthy person have cancer or AIDS or whatever. Look, I'm not one to push my beliefs on anyone, but the whole question here is "Is God Cruel?" The one true and obvious answer is NO! God created all things GOOD. And also, it all depends on what you consider to be cruel.
God let us have our free will. if we do the right things in life, we will be rewarded with good. If we follow the ways of the devil, karma will attack us. Aids is the virus of the devil, whom God created. also God never created sicknesses. remember in genesis, what eve did. if they didnt eat from the tree we wouldnt have to worry about death, suffering, etc. Humans bought this among themselves. SO therefore, GOD IS NOT CRUEL.
The 'wand' is often God's people - those who know they follow Him AND those who don't but are of general good will towards fellow humans. When that 'wand' was waved slavery was abolished and child labour was banned in my own home country. The tragedy is that modern Christians in some places have decided that God has some 'wand' other than themselves!
flossheal: It's not what I believe (I'm an atheist) - I was simply taking the position that if that's true (since it's what most Christians believe), then these are the logical conclusions.
I still believe that any god that can alleviate suffering with no effort, but neglects to is cruel, and certainly not one I'd want to be running the universe.
flossheal: If god is omniscient, he must have known that AIDS (malaria, parasites, etc) would come about. If he's omnipotent, he must be capable of arranging the course of evolution so those things don't arise.
So it seems to me that God must either not be omniscient, not omnipotent, or cruel, to allow such things to come into existence.
Simply a Rose to brighten your day, And maybe lessen the cares in your way; And also, too, to help you to know, That in knowing you, many others grow!
No! All life is a result of evolution. God may have started it all but then left it to His tool, evolution, to continue the progress of everything.
God is Love and in control - I believe as long as we strive to stay close to Him in our daily lives (our walk), praise Him, and seek to please Him in all that we say and do He grants us Mercy (withholds what we deserve) and Grace (gives you what we don't deserve).
Amblessed, I think that you are one of those atheist internet satirists who takes the P out of fundamentalist christians. But you are not that funny.
In case you are sincere, I would be looking forward to an informed and relevant reply to my question from you.
If you believe the creation story in the bible, yes, God created everything, including AIDS, malaria, and any number of even more horrible viruses, bacteria and parasites - specifically to cause suffering. Not very benevolent, huh?
PS I do believe that God is both benevolent and omnipotent, I haven't mentioned it because I hope that's generally self-evident in what I say, but I thought maybe I should make it clear.
I think you would both like a god with a magic wand to wave as it suits you. 'God in a box'. That's not my God, really! God is an awful lot bigger than our boxes.
Floss, I am truly sorry to hear about your mum, I wish her all the very best. I see you point and respect it.
How can we ever know the answer to this question. But if I had to decide I would go with ohsounique answerrr.
No Satan did it rolls eyes
But did God create Satan? xD
amblessed: How does that actually answer the question?