The ever prescient Philip K D!ck provided the name for this line of reasoning... Precrime. I reluctantly chose to hazard this loaded topic knowing full well the ignominy that may await. I did so because I see parallels multiplying daily. Every day I hear more and more about how free expression is endangering lives and must be confined. Today I read that my poor excuse for a senator... Mitch McConnel... has called for legislation to stifle the free exchange of information via the Internet in response to the farce that is Wikileaks. According to Mitch and his ilk... the first amendment is a threat. Should I believe them? If he and those wont to appeal to the unrealized threat of precrime have their way... I will have no choice but believe him. I find this much more dangerous. Following the events of 9/11... those people who questioned the official narrative were said to be dishonoring the lives of those lost on 9/11. This is an attempt to ostracize dissent. Whenever we ostracize... we are in effect dehumanizing those ostracized. Call them crazy... stupid... or imprison them... so that they may be marginialized and ignored. Jews were dehumanized and eradicated. This is the lesson of the Holocaust. The lesson is lost if we simply turn 180 degrees and demonize dissident ideas. You combat ideas with better ones... not by dictate.
I agree with the need to be skeptical, I'm a skeptic myself. The problem is, Holocaust denial is a bigger issue than some historians have an academic debate over the factual history of the Nazi period. Holocaust denial can become a political issue for those seeking to justify National Socialist or fascist agendas. It can be part of an agenda that supports anti-Semitic positions. And, some see it as an effort to trivialise or even suppress the event completely, a fear which has some justification I think. This really is not so much a concern in the United States, which quite frankly hasn't had a real experience with fascism or anti-Semitism on the scale that Europe has had. But suffice to say that if Americans are fearful of communism, Europeans can be just as fearful of fascism and fascist movements are still alive and well in Europe today. There is no need to silence skepticism or freedom of speech. But I completely understand the cautious reactions and open concerns of those who do wish to censor Holocaust denial or cast public scorn on such a position, depending on how far they go and what they are hoping to do. I guess you could say I'm skeptical of Holocaust skeptics!
The sacrosanct is an obstacle to truth. Scrutiny should observe no imposed bounds. David Irving was imprisoned for suggesting that Adolf Hitler did not willfully order the executions based on first account research in which he could not document any such authorization. He was imprisoned for questioning the official take. This is thoughtcrime. In the cynicism grown up around me like an enveloping vine fed by the daft... orgiastic splendor of self delusion in mankind... I never cease to be amazed at its tenacity to weave around loopholes as if they are not there.
"The peculiar evil of silencing the expression of an opinion is, that it is robbing the human race; posterity as well as the existing generation; those who dissent from the opinion, still more than those who hold it. If the opinion is right, they are deprived of the opportunity of exchanging error for truth: if wrong, they lose, what is almost as great a benefit, the clearer perception and livelier impression of truth, produced by its collision with error."
John Stuart Mill, On Liberty, 1859
Blind obeisance is not conducive to freedom.
Ok, I will type this again. Locking away David Irving for a year was draconic, and def not the direction our civilization needs to go. We need to give idiots their stump. To make this reply short; I lived in Germany three years. I have visited the camps. My grandpa was a liberator. My German girlfriends grandparents hid Jews in the attic. I have read dozens of history books and survivors accounts. i have read Mein kampf and am well versed in german history and Zionism. I also do not believe that the Holocaust should be an excuse for retribution beyond the creation of an israel stae proxt to their homeland, which is undoubtedly in or around Jeruselam. Just look at Ancient maps and you will def see. Isralr keeps receeding. How much? Till the jews are in the sea? Where will we put this displaced group this time? When will the world be happy?
sorry TY, this was meant to be here, not down there. :)
Ok, I will type this again.
Locking away David Irving for a year was draconic, and def not the direction our civilization needs to go. We need to give idiots their stump. To make this reply short; I lived in Germany three years. I have visited the camps. My grandpa was a liberator. My German girlfriends grandparents hid Jews in the attic. I have read dozens of history books and survivors accounts. i have read Mein kampf and am well versed in german history and Zionism. I also do not believe that the Holocaust should be an excuse for retribution beyond the creation of an israel stae proxt to their homeland, which is undoubtedly in or around Jeruselam. Just look at Ancient maps and you will def see. Isralr keeps receeding. How much? Till the jews are in the sea? Where will we put this displaced group this time? When will the world be happy?
Maybe I should rephrase what I'm trying to say. I don't support censoring free speech or suppressing public expression of unpopular opinions that question the "official" version of events. I'm not saying I think Holocaust denial should be a crime; I was simply pointing out that in many countries which actually have a history with this issue, it is so, and those who make it a crime have, at least in their minds, good reasons for doing so.
My own position is exactly what you are saying: that it's better to discredit such views by arguing against them. And while I don't believe in ostracizing such views, I do believe in discrediting them and then questioning the motives, intellect and possible agendas of those who continue to insist on their views even after being presented with overwhelming evidence to the contrary.
Absolutely. Holocaust skeptics should be able to make their case without fear of prosecution. There is a saying that daylight is the best disinfectant. With the open and free exchange of ideas errors are more easily caught.
There is no idea so dangerous and threatening that it should be banned. It is the banning of ideas that is dangerous because once unpopular ideas are banned people live in the worst sort of police state where even ideas are censored.
We have NAZIs marching through Jewish neighborhood and members of the Westboro Baptist Church picketing the funerals of our fallen soldiers, Things like this are upsetting but the alternative of silencing unpopular opinions is worse.
The physical and testimonial evidence for the Holocaust is overwhelming, so people that deny that it happened tend to do so for political reasons or their own agendas. It's the same with other things for which there is substantial evidence but people choose to deny anyway.
Many European countries actually have laws against denying the Holocaust or other forms of genocide, and some of these laws carry strong penalties. Hungary, for example, passed a law this year which punishes denying genocides committed by fascist, communist, or other regimes with a prison sentence of up to three years.
Hitler believed in God. He considered himself a Catholic and a good Christian. In Mein Kampf he wrote, "I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord."
Denying the Christian God is more like denying Santa Clause or the tooth fairy than denying historical events.
Same reason there are people who deny God's existence and love and authority. They don't want it. They want to pretend it isn't real and that humans aren't capable of being so bad as to need a Savior and they can live on the9ir own without God or a need for forgiveness.
Sigh. I had a long response to this which I can't be bothered to retype. Suffice to say, while I agree these people are rather idiotic, I think it is dangerous to be restricting freedom of speech just because we don't like what they're saying
hah i wounder the same thing, u know that there is proof and everything, but yet it makes them feel better to deny it. it is what it is. everyone has there own opion and some are shocking, but believe it or not its real!
Holocaust denial has everything to do with Israel. Holocaust deniers believe that the whole thing was a hoax delivered by Jews just so that they could create a Jewish State. Hogwash!
Oh the stupidity of human kind has stopped surprising me. It appears to be the only thing in infinite supply today. It's convenient for them to make it all a conspiracy I guess.
I'm sorry but what exactly is your point? We're discussing comparing a historical fact with a belief based on nothing but faith. What has that got to do with Israel?
that's what I've been wondering too. how can people deny that it happened when there's proof: pictures, diaries, witnesses, survivors, etc.
You're comparing something that has physical evidence to a belief based on faith alone? ok...
sadly, there are some crazy people in the world :(
They are stupid . & try to avoid the past .