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Hey Bryson, sorry for the delayed response. Was away on vacation... Evidence and proof are not exactly the same. Evidence is something that is used to prove or disprove something. Proof it the result. When you use the word proof instead of evidence, you make it sound like the truth of what you say is beyond reproach and must be accepted by everyone. I understand that some of the things you see as evidence seem real to you. But most are not tangible evidence. Not something that can be ovbserved, repeated and investigated. For instance, there is no evidence a soul even exists, so how can that be evidence for the existence of a god? Evidence is real and observable. The bible is not evidence of anything, anymore than the Koran, or any other ancient text is. Unexplained medical recoveries are just that, unexplained. Assigning a supernatural cause for it is just wishful thinking, not evidence. What you call evidence, is not evidence in the scientific sense.
"The point is the things you put your faith in can fail you.... God won't." Sorry, but you are turning to dogma again. Faith to me is the feeling that I can rely on someone or something to not fail me. Belief in something without evidence, or blind faith, is something that is just not possible for me.
"And there is no where near as much evidence that supports the FSM than God...." I beg to differ. There is absolutely NO tangible evidence either exist. And it was not created so much to mock religion as it was to show that religion has no place in a secular government.
"Plus, the bible has been around for so much longer and was applicable to people's lives then as it is now."
And the stories of Zues, Odin and Qetzoquatal have been around longer than the bible. Does that make them any more true?
"he won't be in the presence of sin because he is Holy." He won't, but he could if he wanted to? So it is a choice?
"don't act like everyone can't help what they do."
I am not acting like people can't help what they do. They can. They can choose to be mean or selfish, or they can choose to be kind and generous.
"You can help sinning right?"
It depends on your definition of sinning? If not being able to believe in the supernatural is sinning, then no, I can not help sinning. Do you understand that? It is NOT POSSIBLE for me to believe, unless I see tangible evidence.
"I'm sorry if you don't like the idea of a mass murderer who goes to heaven after becoming a christian and law abiding non christians don't."
Well I would only not like it if I actually believed it. My point was that it would be cruel to let a mass murderer into heaven, yet not a relatively good person simply because he had no ability to believe.
"As for choice... you choose not to because you say you are too rational and logical to think that."
AHGGG!!! IT IS NOT A CHOICE. And it is not being TOO RATIONAL. It is simply not seeing the slightest bit of evidence. Why is that such a difficult concept? Do you really think that people can just flip a switch and believe something that defies logic and reason? Can you choose to believe in the FSM, or Zues, or Vishnu?
"I'm sorry I'm all for creative design. If I see a beautifully designed building... I think someone designed it... not some explosion of stuff created it out of pure chance."
Bryson, I know you are smarter than this. Nature is far from perfect. Ever see a platypus? What about our appendix and tail bone. They are useless veistiges from an earlier species. If we were designed, why would we have these things still? If the earth was designed, why would we have earthquakes, volcanoes, hurricaines? When someone deisgns a building, do the design the windows to just blow out randomly, or to shake violently, like the earth's crust does? And the fact that we are here is not chance. It is pure probablity considering the vastness of the universe. There are probably millions, maybe billions of planets with life on them. We are just one of them.
"he is just to send bad people to hell (that is everyone who has sinned) and he is loving providing a way out."
If you define "bad people" as those that are UNABLE to believe in the supernatural, than this god of your is neither just nor loving. He is cruel and narcisitic.
I have no desire to change your mind, but I wish you could just once understand that belief in a god for some is not a choice. It almost seems that if you acknoledge that fact, you have to also acknowledge that your god is not as just as you think.
Ok I'm sorry I gave you a dogmatic response to a religious question. I will try to refrain. Anyways.... last I checked proof and evidence are practically the same thing, but let me try answer that... the bible, creation, miracles the doctors can't explain, a soul, morals, emotions... I can go on.... and I know what you are going to combat each one with.
Bible written by man therefore must be wrong, creation- big bang, miracles- aren't miracles, morals/emotions- calculated synapses in our minds causing a certain thought or feeling, soul- personality- repeat of the last one or doesn't exist. That have been the atheists views I have experienced and that is were faith comes in. And faith in you and your family isn't quite the same as faith in an God. You can see yourself and know what you and your family does and eventually your abilities will leave you and your family won't always be there however, faith in something that will never change and will always be there. The point is the things you put your faith in can fail you.... God won't. And when I use the word faith.... it's meant in God. Not in anyone else. I know faith can be used for other things. And there is no where near as much evidence that supports the FSM than God.... first off that was created to mock all religion. So that in itself is a bad argument to use. Plus, the bible has been around for so much longer and was applicable to people's lives then as it is now. Ok late me change an earlier statement.... he won't be in the presence of sin because he is Holy. "And what exactly is righteous about saving some good people, and sending others to hell over something they can't help?".... don't act like everyone can't help what they do. You can help sinning right? Well, going back to the original subject, if you don't want God's help into heaven, then live a sinless life. I'm sorry if you don't like the idea of a mass murderer who goes to heaven after becoming a christian and law abiding non christians don't. However, to God we are the same. Sin is the same in his eyes and it ruins all the same. That is where we started this when I said actions don't matter but the heart does. You may hate that bad person, but that person is a parent/spouse/offspring/friend to someone who cares for them it helps people to know that they can find redemption. Don't like it.... oh well. As for choice... you choose not to because you say you are too rational and logical to think that. Well, I think I'm pretty rational too to think that everything that is is nothing more that a result of an elemental explosion. I'm sorry I'm all for creative design. If I see a beautifully designed building... I think someone designed it... not some explosion of stuff created it out of pure chance. "If he was loving and just, he would not send anyone to hell."... that is where I repeat myself, he is just to send bad people to hell (that is everyone who has sinned) and he is loving providing a way out.
Well I guess asking for a non-dogmatic answer was useless. "If you always had to have proof on everything then faith would be pointless...." I said evidence, not proof. And I have plenty of faith. I have faith that my family loves me. I have faith in my abilities and talents. I have faith in people's inherent goodness. Faith is not only about believing something with out evidence. There is just as much evidence the Flying Spaghetti Monster exists. Should I have faith in him too? "God is a righteous God so he can't be in the presence of sin....." He can't or won't? I thought he was all powerful. If he is all powerful, he can, but he just chooses not to. And what exactly is righteous about saving some good people, and sending others to hell over something they can't help? "However, God is loving where he provides a way to where we can still get to heaven even though we shouldn't. " He hasn't provided me a way. I can not just choose to start believing in your god, just as I can not choose to start believing in the Flying Spaghetti Monster. Can you CHOOSE to start believing in the FSM? I could pretend to believe in your god, but wouldn't an all-knowing god know that I was pretending. "That's where he is loving and just." If he was loving and just, he would not send anyone to hell. There is something very wrong with a belief that a mass murderer can get into heaven, but I, as well as many other good people, can't get into heaven. If your god created me, then he created me with a highly rational and logical mind that can not just accept something without evidence. In other words, he is setting me up to fail...
If you always had to have proof on everything then faith would be pointless.... And we are called to walk by faith not by sight.... And at one point in everyone's life their was a time when we could earn heaven simply by works..... Then we sinned and that first sin prevented us from earning heaven even if we live the rest of our lives as what we see as a "good" person. Plus, if we could just be a good person, that means we can get to heaven without God..... God is a righteous God so he can't be in the presence of sin..... Which we all have sinned so if we can't be in heaven with God we are left with one option. However, God is loving where he provides a way to where we can still get to heaven even though we shouldn't. That's where he is loving and just. You can't get to heaven by works alone because you will be getting to heaven "Gods place" without God.
You are only telling me the same thing over and over. I understand the dogmatic part. What I want to know is WHY are good deeds and being a good person not more important than believing? And I don't need proof, I would just like to see the slightest bit of evidence. I have never seen any. I don't really think he is evil, because I don't believe he exists. I was only referring to your god that way for the purposes of discussion. I have still never been able to get a real non-dogmatic answer as to why a supposedly loving god would be so cruel as to send people to hell for something they can not change. At least if he did appear in front of me, it would be something. Might I think I were seeing things? Maybe, but it has still never happened. And how is not being able to believe in something without proof being disobedient?
Works isn't enough because you can't earn your way to heaven. If you commit just one sin that one bad deed makes it where you can't work your way to heaven. That is why Jesus is such a big deal, because he was the only one who had earned heaven and chose to die a sinners death. And the whole proof thing..... you can't prove faith to the faithless. The problem you and I stand at is we dismiss each others proof. You can't disprove God. You say he's mean evil whatever, but not that he doesn't exist. Anyways if God were to appear infront of you and said believe in me.... would you believe then or think you were insane or dismiss it? Just is if you do something wrong you get punished.... well hell is punishment for a disobedient life.
You are not answering my question. WHY are good works not enough? What is "just" about torturing people for eternity because they are unable to believe something without proof? I am sorry, but it makes no sense whatsoever to call that a just or loving god. He created people knowing they would sin, yet still punishes them for the sin he created. He also created people knowing they could not believe, and then punishes them for it. This is all a man-made religious construct in order to keep people believing, because if belief isn't required, then there is no reason for a church to exist. But the idea of a loving god being so cruel is just illogical.
In Catholicism there is the idea that worldly goods detracts from one's spirituality and priests and nuns take vows of poverty. The Catholic ideal is to be poor and to dedicate your life to helping others.
The Protestant work ethic is rooted in Calvinism and holds the view that hard work was a requirement and a result of salvation. Since success is seen as a product of hard work capitalism was seen as the ultimate good and welfare as inappropriate or even wrong since it rewards those who haven't proven themselves worthy of salvation. There isn't a single Christian ideal of work; different sects have different ideals.
Work, according to both the the book of James and Jesus himself, is to be expected and will be seen in believers. You are supposed to care for the needy, live moderately, praise God etc. According to the Apostle Paul (and Jesus too. He's never left out), it is not necessary for salvation. You are saved by grace and grace alone.
Combining these two pieces, works do not save you, but they are good, so do them anyway.
because he is a just God. Because we all have sinned therefore losing the purity that would have earned us a spot in heaven. Plus there is no works that can earn us salvation. This way, through grace, that everyone can be saved despite the deeds they have done. That means the most horrible can be saved along with the most righteous. "Good works"..... well what is your idea of good? Is it God's idea of good?
Ok if you are talking about work as in a job..... the bible says if a man doesn't work he doesn't eat. Meaning you can't have everything in life given to you. Plus the bible talks about how laziness is a sin...... but if you are talking about works as in deeds, they can't earn you a spot in heaven. Good works are important to a Christian's testimony but not required to go to heaven.
Ok if you are talking about work as in a job..... the bible says if a man doesn't work he doesn't eat. Meaning you can't have everything in life given to you. Plus the bible talks about how laziness is a sin...... but if you are talking about works as in deeds, they can't earn you a spot in heaven. Good works are important to a Christian's testimony but not required to go to heaven.
Why is good works not enough? Does that mean the majority of people in this world do not get saved? No offense, but how can he be considered a loving god if he would let the most of the people he created be sent to hell?
Thank you so much! :)
Thank you so much! :)
