i have NEVER understood this, i have been having a debate about this with some of my friends, i do not believe that anyone could possibly be born gay to me, its the way wyou have been bought up, the subtle messeges some people come across during life and others dont, the scientists of you will probably say yes, you can be born gay if you have a hormone imbalance but to be, i cant see that happening and if thats correct then that means that gay people are ill and have not got sufficient hormons to function like a normal human being?? this has been a major topic of conversation for weeks now and i just wanted some ther peoples opinion thankss :)
That could be a matter of opinion though. I read it and see "men with men committing indecent acts toward one another" "men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire for one another" that to me says that homosexuality is unnatural. People can take the bible and twist it to mean something else that they see fit. This is matters of opinion and its just what i think. We are meant to reproduce. its not the natural way we were made. Thats just my thoughts. 1.Lev. 18:22 , "You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female; it is an abomination." God created man and woman. Not man and man. Often times people will try to make the bible agree to their agenda but its clear what is supposed to be. Now im not saying none of them will go to heaven. God forgives. We all sin and not one sin is bigger than the other in his eyes except the unforgivable sin. Which is basically ignoring the Holy Spirit. I can understand that becuz if you choose to ignore then your never saved. Deuteronomy 23:17 forbade the presence of a "sodomite" in the land of Israel.
An incident similar to that of Sodom and Gomorrah is seen again in Judges 19. Again the sin of homosexuality is described as "wickedness."
In Romans 1:18-32 the apostle Paul condemns the practice in the severest terms. Homosexuality is "unclean," "impure," "dishonoring to the body," "vile," "degrading / disgraceful," "contrary to nature," "unseemly/ obscene," "improper activity of a depraved mind," "unrighteous," "wicked," etc. Of particular importance to the apostle in this passage is the that homosexuality is "unnatural" contrary to nature. We may just have a difference in opinion. But i cant ignore the clear signs God gives me. I dont judge these people. I love them all, becuz i am no better than them. I am worse in ways unlike them. and they are better than me in ways. But i no what i am reading. I think im right about this one.
I love your combination of strong commitment and humility, Angel. {:^) It's true there are some plain differences of viewpoint between us. For example, as a Jew I don't take the Christian Bible to be part of scripture. But I still like to read and understand it in the light of the scriptural status I know it has for others. One thing I like about studying religious texts is that it is a communal endeavor: we learn it most deeply when we discuss it with each other and consider each other's ways of understanding it. That's one big part of how our "opinions" about what it means change over time as our understanding grows. (That also happens through prayer, life experience, and contemplation.) So I enjoy looking closely at these Christian texts with you, even though they are not my own. 1) You write that 1:26 calls female homosexuality (hs) unnatural, and 1:27 calls male hs unnatural. I agree that 1:26 says that certain women are engaging in some kind(s) of sexual activity that the verse calls unnatural, but it doesn't identify what that sexual activity was or who they were doing it with, and it never mentions hs or same-sex activity at all. That's why I said it "could just as well be oral and ānal sex performed...with men" - and some Christian translations do, in fact, understand it that way. I agree with you that same-sex activity is a plausible way to understand it, but if that is not the only plausible way to understand it - if there is another equally likely way to read that doesn't put you at odds with a whole, large group of people against whom you bear no ill will nor negative judgment, then why would you choose the more polarizing reading as the "real" one? I'd hope to reply in a day or so to more of what you said, but right now the Sabbath is about to begin for me {:^) Besides, maybe it's a good idea to start with one small piece like this, and see what we can make of it together.
Cally, I think you're mixing together several unconnected things here. I'm extremely sorry to hear that you feel you have been forced to marry, have children, and do housecleaning, but that has nothing to do with your sexual orientation. Far too many women, straight or gay, have found themselves in situations like yours.
¶
The relationship between gender identity ("literally forced to be a girl") and sexual orientation is more interesting, but they are still two separate things. Your statement suggests that you felt your rejection of "feminine" propriety came naturally to you. Perhaps, if you had not felt pressured to be a girl, it might have felt entirely "natural" to you to grow up identifying inwardly as a boy/man. You might have dressed and lived as one, maybe even having reconstructive surgery when you reached adulthood, to conform your body as closely as possible to your gender identity. Or you might have grown out of your "tomboy" choices and come naturally, without being forced, to identify as a girl/woman. Either way, none of your description of your childhood experience pertains at all to your sexual orientation toward men as your preferred sexual partners (regardless of the separate question of your gender identity). There is no reason to think that your preference for men would have been affected or changed.
¶
In other words, if there is, as you say, "no chance [you] could be gay," this strongly suggests that your heterosexual orientation has always been more deeply inherent in your being than simply what you were told was proper.
But i honeslty dont think thats a reson why its natural, becuase its also natural to eat/k.ill their babies. It is poor science to "read" human motivations and sentiments into animal behavior. Irrational animal behavor is not acceptable to determine what is morally exceptable for behavor of rational humans. Animals respond to external or internal stimuli. Animals senses are limited to sound, touch, taste, smell and image. Animals can confuse one sensation or one object with another becuz they lack human intellectual precision. In humans when two instictive reactions clash the intellect determines the best route to follow. Animals lack that intellect and will, when two instictive reactions clash the one most favored by circumstances wins. Becuz of these internal or external stimuli's the animals sometimes leads to cannibalism, ho.mose.xuality and filicide. Ex: Cats are usually in play mode or hunt mode. When they are in hunt mode or play mode its hard to switch off, so they may k!ll their kittens. Pray for cats are usually small, make high pitched noises and move fast and erratic - all the same as their kitten. They confuse the two and end up K.illing their own kittens. Basic point they are confused. they are not like humans
well i guess i read it and see men abandon the natural function of woman and burned in desire for one another. That says to me they had relations with each other. I cant really see any other way. Also it clearly states it is an abomination which says to me that God did not intend for this to be the righteous way. I could see how oral and all that is still wrong but i cant see any other way to twist that last verse. Im trying, dont get me wrong i love these conversations. It helps me understand a lot of things but this one i cant grasp other than what i think it reads. I dont intend in p.issing off people but i cant change how i think about it. I no that things arent always easy, especially with God and He doesnt change or adapt. Things we dont understand. There are alot if things that people dont agree with about the bible and God . I just got think that one is clear.
Have you every heard gay people talking about how they knew that they were different from a very early age? Even before people try to brainwash them into beliving that being attracted to the same sex is wrong... they will tell you, they had these feelings from the start and didn't understand why. I hear people say that it's "unnartural" to be gay, but the truth is that it is totally natural. Like Kahili said, there are different species of animals that mate with the same sex. Not to quote an awful pop singer, but these people really were born that way. I see no reason for us to judge them for something that effects their lives so intensely, and ours hardly at all. I would never want to be told who I could love, especially if it is not hurting anyone.
I agree about us all being sinners, Angel. But I think you're not reading the passage carefully enough. It never calls same-sex activity unnatural. What it does call unnatural (an odd translation for the Greek "atimias," more accurately rendered as dishonorable or degrading) could just as well be oral and ānal sex performed by women with men. Moreover, sexual orientation - whether it is given at birth, or results from certain life experiences - is by definition not something that a person chooses. This passage, on the other hand, is clearly all about willfully chosen sexual practices, and thus says nothing at all about homosexual orientation - not surprising, since the phenomenon was unrecognized until the late 19th century.
I agree about us all being sinners, Angel. But I think you're not reading the passage carefully enough. It never calls same-sex activity unnatural. What it does call unnatural (an odd translation for the Greek "atimias," more accurately rendered as dishonorable or degrading) could just as well be oral and ānal sex performed by women with men. Moreover, sexual orientation - whether it is given at birth, or results from certain life experiences - is by definition not something that a person chooses. This passage, on the other hand, is clearly all about willfully chosen sexual practices, and thus says nothing at all about homosexual orientation - not surprising, since the phenomenon was unrecognized until the late 19th century.
I think yes. My roommate was 3 when he watched musicals (not saying that is a fair stereotype) but by time he was 5 he was wearing pink, and in elementary like all boys "girls were icky" but that never changed. He was in dance, theater and choir, and never took any intrest in women. By time he was in highschool he declared his sexuality. And now he is 24 and proudly gay. :) I always had a thing for female bodies growing up. In middle school I had boyfriends but always checked girls out. I found F4F prOn more intresting in Highschool, and I have a male fiance, however he knows that I am bisexual and I have had girlfriends in the past. I am 21 and for me, its not a phase or just "testing the waters"
"For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, 27and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecen tacts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error. 28And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper." . Rom. 1:26-28. It says its not natural. But like with all temptation we sin. Not one of us doesnt. We are all sinners
I don't think I explained it properly, I havnt been FORCED to marry, I am engaged, but not yet married. What I ment is I have always known from day dot I was expected to marry and all the other stuff, my point was. If I had been bought up oin. A different way, maybe I would have been gay?? My family and everyone I know are extreeeemly homophobic and in my community no one would ever be gay, however if I or 1 of my brothers were to be born into a familysomewhere else, maybe we would have been gay?? I just think because the way we have all been bought up, it just has never been an option that's why I think your not born gay
Some people say it is. I think its not who you are its what you do. Are murderers born the way they are? Are child molesters born that way? to like children.... they cant help it. But they still do. Dont get me wrong i dont have a problem with gay people. Got good friends who are gay. My best friend is gay. I dont no about it being natural honestly. I dont think it is becuz thats not how we were made. We were not made to lay with the same se.x thats not how reproduction goes. Not trying to start an argument.... just how i think of it. I thnik it may be a chemical embalance
I absolutely think being gay is more than just a result of upbringing. I am not sure why its so difficult to believe that something like sexual attraction could be under the influence of genetics and biochemistry. People being attracted to the opposite sex is under the control of genetics, not upbringing, so alterations in this surely could mean an individual is attracted to the same sex. Do you really think that people would simply choose to be gay when it means so much mistreatment? And the fact that it occurs in over 300 species further supports this.
For the love of god...no one knows the who what when where why and how of being gay....not even psychologists. It is just an impulse. Why do straights like the opposite sex because of some sort of impulse. I personally feel its just preference. I like both and I don't know why or to be honest really care why I just do. Most LGBT community members are the same way when they come full circle. They know what they like and like it. It would be like me asking you why do you like your favorite color...no one ever has a true good reason...they just like it.
Yea, I think most people are born gay. Just like how straight people are born to like the opposite sex. We usually don't choose to like the opposite sex.. it just happens..
Plus, gay people are hated/made fun of a lot... discriminated, you know..? So why would you choose to live the life of a discrimination?
I mean, sure, some girls will go bi to impress their boyfriends, but that's not truely being gay, in my opinion...
So yes, I think you can be born gay, and I think that most gays are born that way.
Gore Vidal doesn't believe there is any such thing as a heterosexual or homosexual person. There is heterosexual and homosexual behavior. He goes on to explain that anyone can behave heterosexually or homosexually. Whether we are attracted to the same or opposite gender is a complex interaction of genetics, hormones, cultural norms, and experiences. I believe that people are born with a propensity to be straight or gay. The orientation one adopts is more complex though.
FYI, male seahorses do not 'get pregnant' in the manner you mean. The female lays eggs in a pouch in the male's abdomen, and he cares for the eggs until they hatch, then 'gives birth' out of that pouch.
Also, yes, there are homosexual animals. Some animals mate for life, and sometimes, as in swans, for example, they will make same-sex pairings. They have even been known to chase off females from nests and take over the brooding and raising of babies.
i cant say i have ever realised im straight ad yes, i can 100% say its the way i have been bought up, if u read the comment above you will see what i used to be like as a child and i as literally forced to be a girl, to marry, have children and hkeep mine and my husbands home clean, there is no chance i could be gay and apart from 2 people who i met outside of my life, i do not know 1 other gay person, this to me proves its the way you have been bought up!
During high school and Nursing School I was taught X's and Y's were to form your gender primarily, but lead to childhood defects if deformed such as down's syndrome and turner's syndrome.I have NEVER once read that it was linked to chemical imbalances and determining your likelihood of you being straight or homosexual. If you have any evidence that proves otherwise I feel you should cite it so we can all be enlightened.
Courtney, you flipped her OPINION, completely around. She even stated she didn't have a problem with gay people. She is entitlted to her own opinion, as are you, you have no right to jump down her throat like that. She was not comparing them in the sense you're making it, she simply said it for examples to prove her point. There's no need to get so angry over absolutely nothing, sorry.
Yes. It's proven that the more older brothers you have, the more likely you are to be gay. It's to do with the levels of hormones present in the womb at the time of development. I do think that people than then choose weather to act on their desired or not, in later life. But it is not someone's decision weather or not they feel more sexually attracted to one sex or the other.
Angel, you wrote: "im religious. I dont judge. thats not my place. But my opinion stands , its not natural." This reminds me of a conversation we had many months ago; maybe you remember it? The fact that G!d tells us not to engage in a certain behavior hardly means that the behavior is unnatural. In fact, such rules usually pertain to curbing our natural desires.
it was not ME saying they are sick, far from it i have absolutly nothing against gays!! my other halfs brother is gay and my niece is a lesbian the fact that it was a hormone imbalance so they were 'sick' came up in the conversation, maybe i didnt make that clear. and i respect your opinion but i cannot see how you can be born gay, its not human instinct is it???
Thats right. we are all not worthy. Thats why i dont judge. Becuz i have my problems as well. I sin as well. But i know what the bible says about it. And i cant deny it. I no when im sinning and when i have fallen short. But God loves all of us. Even gay people can go to heaven. If they love God. Not one sin is bigger than the other to him. We all are sinners.
i used t play with action men when i was younger and i used to cry every day when my mum tied little bown in my hair and forced me to wear dresses, i always said i was never getting married and if i did i would be wearing a blue suit, i never played with barbies and used to collect pokemon cards, im straight so what you said obviously isnt true in all cases
It's not a hormone imbalance, it has to do with their X and Y chromosomes which makes them attracted to the same sex. They are not sick and it is not about how you're raised. There are plenty of gay kids who have homophobic parents. There are many species of animals, including dolphins, that have sex with members of the same sex. It's totally natural.
I also studied GBLT groups and individuals in College for a Cultrual Anthropology project. Which consisted of getting to know the person and how they were raised culturally without any bias to make actuarte determinations scientifically about the deter of how they were raised vs how they were born, the nature vs nurture theory.
But then again...what do i know lol. I only have opinions. I dont hate these people tho. Dont get me wrong. They are people like me. Cuz i once to had a thing for girls lol. But i overcome it somehow. But even then i didnt think it was natural. I knew thats not how i was supposed to be. Thats just always how i thought. Lol.
im not going into this again. If you just read the comments you will see. Im not gonna state everything you said and how it took offense becuz ur "uninformed" it doesnt take a genuis. Some people may not agree with my opinion but i guaruntee a lot do. So its not like im unreasonable. Have a good day Courtney
no, it's more common now b/c it's more accepted and people don't feel like they have to hide their lifestyle like they used to.... that just sounds like ignorance. people let fear rule their lives... are you afraid you are going to magically be turned gay by all the gays going out and campaigning?!?
Maybe so. Or an exposure to that kind of life style at an early age. Its so common now that society has made it look like a natural thing, when really its not. Its harmfull in some ways. Many people have changed their se.xual orientation, which leads me to believe it is not related to DNA or genes
FYI Who?..coz you aint tellin me anything i dont already know TYVM....But i must say your Swans thing need the title of being confused not that of them being Homosexual....I dont know where you people (and a cat) get these ideas?post some credible links please coz i am smellin BS.
Because they would still have the same chromosomes, they would have just accepted it. And no, it is not a life choice, when people feel they are becoming attracted to the same sex, they can't just say "no, I want to be straight" and magically become not attracted to them. -.-
haha he understands actually. But he cant explain. its just how it is for him and thats ok with me. its not like he is out k!lling people or ra.ping children. How i put it was an example of how people are born certain ways. Its not what you are its what you do
"homosexuality is common in the animal kingdom as well." Do these animals have sex with the same sex always...NO...they are just in sex mode and will have sex with anything just like your dog would with your leg...ANIMALS ARE NOT GAY and will never be.
Courtney i was asked for my opinion and i said it. I even said not trying to start an argument. but here you come all stuck up and actin like you know it all. callin me ignorant. Im not uninformed. I no what im talking about. its my opinion. got it
Yes. you are born gay. A guy that is gay has more female hormones and cells than the average guy. A lesbian has more male hormones than female. There brains are wired differently then a straight person. i had to do a project on something like this.
scientifically we are animals. But we are seperated from animals becuz we can reason, we can control ourselves. What i meant Mrs get technical about everything is we are not animals like the ones you are speaking of. we are far different
you said that it's harmful in some ways and that peopel have changed their sexual orientation... i like you so maybe "ignorant" was a little harsh, but rather uninformed would have been a better word. just a friendly disagreement :)
He knows how i feel. I still respect him. I dont judge him. We have a blast together. We dont even go into it becuz he knows im religious. I dont judge. thats not my place. But my opinion stands , its not natural
I cannot agree with that, im christian. I believe that its a sin and not natural but i also believe judge not less you be judged. so either way as long as they are happy then go for it. I care about ur heart
It really has nothing to do with how the parents raise their kids. Kids can find the same sex attractive at an early age. How the parent raises the kid will not determine who that person is attracted to.
"callin us animals nah i no my family aint no animals, not sure wat farm ur livin on tho" - WTF does that even mean? not following you anymore... i don't live on a farm, but you spell like you do.
it's a sensitive subject, so your animosity is understood.
i really was just curious about how your best friend feels about you comparing his/her lifestyle to a murder or child molester.
yes your born gay..a baby boy choosing pink over blue and barbies over power rangers, grows up to be a happy out of the closet flamboyent young adult, true story witnessed n experienced it
According to my Bio teacher there is proof that it's directly related to chromosomes and other chemicals in the brain. And considering you're born with those, I believe you are born gay.
trust me, i am not judging gays, i have no right whatsoever to judge with my lifestyle, but like ive already said, were not talking bout creatures n animals, were talkin bout humans!!
I also know his gay lover turned straight not to long ago. So i know im not uninformed about anything i said. He is a great person with a huge heart and thats all that matters to me.
im a catholic and in my religion being gay is "wrong" but to me personally i don't see anything wrong with it. i think as long as you are a good person i believe god will accept you
CallyLouise, how old were you when you first realized you were straight? Do you think it's a result of how you were brought up and subtle messages you were exposed to?
haha no courtney. Thats my opinion. Its not natural in my opinion. But that doesnt mean i dont like them lol.; Its not ignorance when nothing has proven me wrong
i didnt say it was a chemical imbabance, i think its the way your bought up, the whole 'chemical imbabance' things came up in one of our many converstions!
to be honest i don't think it really matters! people should be allowed to love who ever they want.because they are not harming anyone in the process
i believe Kahili is right. It depends on your chromosomes. It just like she said with the dolphins. They will mate with the male or the female.
If you are alive you are either an Animal, plant, fungus, protozoa, or bacteria. Not sure what callylouisee and PAA are but I'm an animal.
But dolphins arnt humans, thats like saying males humans could have babies because male sea horses can, im interested in the human body
well, just make sure that your gay friend doesn't get too close to you, you might catch what he has. it's been a lovely debate :)
Sorry; I don't know how this comment got here, lol! I'm reposting where it belongs, in the exchange under PA Angel's comment.
i agree with everything you said, apart from the chemical imbalance thing, i thinks its just the way you have been bought up
i'm confused, how can i flip your opinion and what opinion of yours did i flip? i can't believe this is going into day 2...
They actually due do this. look at the black swans. they do exactly as Keysha said. research yourself. Its not her duty
well good for you ;) still my opinion. i could also call you ignorant for your opinion. Becuase you are uninformed
if your born gay, why do some people turn straight when they have same sex partners? its a life choice
some people may think ur an idiot too...wow...looks like im out numbered. Who's the real idiot??? :p
dordykakka, callin us animals nah i no my family aint no animals, not sure wat farm ur livin on tho
dordykakka, callin us animals nah i no my family aint no animals, not sure wat farm ur livin on tho
i don't agree with you pistol but thats ok were aloud to believe what we believe:) right?
Female Homosexuality (1:26) Male Homosexuality (1:27) both are called unnatural.
No. It's just Saying that homosexuality is common in the animal kingdom as well.
how does your "gay best friend" feel about your thoughts on homosexuality?
U turned my statement into something hateful which was not intended.
You sure, Fillet? Because I always thought you were a fungi!
I think you missed a few others John...theres more below lol
No such thing as a good person.. We all fall short.
Still not even uninformed. Nothing i said is false
lol Your awesome hayyim. always bringin smiles :)
I agree... let the judging be left up to God.
OMG read and you will see. Its kinda obvious
Kayla, what opinion of hers did i flip?
i changed my mind again - ignorant.
exactly we are not animals.
Not you the Kahili person
Completely agree Kahili!
Sometimes. Not always.
thats right :) thanks
I love you for this.
we are animals.
your all idiots
Imma woman ;)
right.......
Ty kayla
haha ;)
No!
