Is there a God?

If all of the energy and matter that existed before the Big Bang was contained in this ‘speck’, and energy and matter cannot be created, where did all of the millions and millions of galaxies come from. It is impossible according to science for this to have happened.

The “speck” you’re referring to is actually called a singularity, and it was formed during a process called a vacuum fluctuation. A singularity is a single point of convergence of temperature, pressure, and other forces…this single point is the state the universe was originally in, and it was very dense and hot. It cooled during expansion.

So where did the singularity come from? First let’s get one thing straight. Based on quantum physics, we now know there is no such thing as “nothing”. Even in a perfect vacuum, there are still virtual particles on a quantum level being created and destroyed. The laws of thermodynamics you talk about describe things on a level you and I are at. But at the quantum level, things are different. Particles spontaneously appear and disappear, and as strange as that sounds, it’s absolutely been proven because we’ve observed the effects of these particles. So quantum fabric will produce these particles in random, unpredictable fashion. A short time later, these particles, which exist in pairs, will destroy each other and the process will begin again.
The energy to create them comes from the vacuum itself, and this is where you need to understand something else. A vacuum is actually in a curved shape, and this curved shape contains energy in the form of gravity. A Black Hole is a vacuum, where the curvature is so sharp that nothing can escape it’s gravitational pull. Black Holes also offer a strong arguement for the Big Bang. Because if you have a pair of particles appear, and one gets pulled into the Black Hole, now you have its partner particle without an antiparticle to destroy it. And now it’s here to stay.

I’m not making this up. It’s part of quantum physics, which is something that is hard to wrap your mind around, but is real and shattering how we think about the world around us. I suggest you do some research, because quantum physics explains how the universe, effectively, came from “nothingness”.

Science says that in the first billionth of a second (or thereabout) after the Big Bang, all of the matter that was supposed to have been created, was thrown out into space so fast, that 4 billion years later, we can detect with a radio telescope, the energy of this event.

Again, matter wasn’t “thrown out”. When the singularity began to expand because of the pressure vaccuum around it, it also rapidly, rapidly cooled off. Everything was homogenous at first, but gradually gravity forced clumps of dark matter together, and these became the building blocks of protogalaxies. A galaxy is mostly dark matter after all, and a star is formed from clouds of condensing gasses. All of this is possible in a place where you’ve got gravity (negative energy) and matter (positive energy) to interact. ANd by the way, if the universe isn’t expanding, how do you explain the fact that all galaxies are continuously moving outward, a phenomenon that has been observed?

Darwin, because he had no scientific background he didn’t have the credentials to be making any theories.

The theory of evolution has come a long way since Darwin, and refuting his Origin of Species no longer means you have refuted evolution. Did you know that only two continents (Europe and North America) have been thoroughly excavated for fossils? Can you imagine how many more fossils will be found once Asia and Africa, the Earth’s two largest land masses, have been excavated? We may very well find a large number of “missing links” in those places.

It was the discovery of the Cambrian fossils that ultimately led to the demise of Darwin’s infamous theory.

Far from it. The Cambrian Explosion you refer to was not the sudden appearance of multiple species. We know from recently discovered fossil evidence that bilaterian organisms existed prior to this, meaning there were moderately complex life forms even before the Cambrian era. ANd while there was certainly a rapid rise in the disparity of species during this period, there are several explanations as to why this happened, such as a rise in the EArth’s oxygen levels, the end of an Ice Age, etc. Besides, this era lasted over a very long time.

Intellectualizing is a known defense mechanism for psychologically distancing yourself from another person. You talk in terms that cannot be completely understood by the “unitiated” or “ignorant” and the conversation or situation quickly dissipates.

Yeah. You know what else you can do? Make arguements about theories that you’re simply too lazy to study and thoroughly understand. That’s also fairly common.

None of your arguements discredit the theories of evolution or the Big Bang, which are widely accepted by the vast majority of astrophysicists, microbiologists, etc. Nor do your arguements give any substantial proof of the existence of God.

I might ask you a few questions. Has God always existed? How do you know this? The Bible says “In the beginning…” and then describes the existence of God but gives no explanation for how he got there. Why is God gender specific? And why did he create the cosmos only to see his project fail?

If you read the Bible that reason is made very clear. It starts out with the creation of perfect uncontaminated beings. Then for some undisclosed reason there was a betrayal of loyalty and trust; and over a period of time these beings were corrupted twice; once with the Eve and the tree of knowledge incident and once with the ‘angels’ coming to earth and mating with the women. Because of these contaminations the corruption was so complete (Gen 6: 5) that the Creator found it necessary to obliterate the whole ‘experiment’ with the exception of a few specimens of each species; the Noah story. From that point on the Bible tells a story of how the Creator tried to re-educate the descendents of Noah and undo the damage that was done. Evidence of the extent of this damage is provided through the necessity of laws of conduct; like The Ten Commandments and the over 600 laws provided to he Hebrews talked about in Leviticus 18: 1-5. The Creator even went so far as to keep the Hebrews separate from the influence of other cultures, by having them wander seemingly aimlessly for about forty years, providing everything they needed. It was during this time, that the Creator had a very personal relationship with the Hebrew people (Israelites) and forbid the circumcision ritual (a sign of the Covenant he had with them) until the last of the original people had died. Because the Israelites had this need to worship gods, which they learned from the Egyptians, he even went to far as to have them build a portable Tabernacle, so they could worship a real Living God, instead of man made statues. The Creator initiated sacrifice rituals as an attempt to change their mindset; but none of this worked. The Creator was getting disappointed and frustrated that all of his attempts at re-education had no effect. (Exodus 32: 9).
Finally the Creator realized that there is no hope in the re-education attempts (Exodus 33: 3) and starts a slow abandonment of the matter. (Exodus 33: 5)

This withdrawal of the Creator from the Israelites is done over a series of steps. The first is the transcription of the Torah to Moses and the command that it should be read to the Israelites every year (in the hope that there will be a change of heart). The second is when the Creator told Moses that he wanted to ‘consume’ the Israelites and replace them with Moses’ seed, but Moses talked him out of it. The third is when man said they would not change and wanted to be ruled by a human king and not God. (1 Samuel 12: 11-17). The appointment of human kings began with the Divine appointment of King Saul (he was a miserable failure), then King David (he was better but he set bad examples by committing adultery with Bath Sheba and had her husband sent to the front lines of fighting and killed so he could have her as his wife). Then Solomon, David’s son was king, with all of his wisdom he worshipped the idols of his wives. The Creator sent messengers in an attempt to get the Israelites to change their ways, in the form of Prophets (Matt 23: 37); because they said they would rather listen to a man than a God; but that didn’t work either. The final step was with the birth of Jesus, an incorruptible king, sent by the Creator in answer to man’s wishes to be ruled by a man rather than a God. That is why he referred to himself as the Son of Man (Matthew 16: 13). In fact in this verse (Mathew 23: 39) the Creator said he is abandoning the people of earth until they acknowledge Jesus as their King.

The Creator was never able to undo the damage done by the traitorous angels (messengers) in all of his attempts. In the New Testament Jesus said this world is ruled by an evil ‘god’ because man would not listen to the Supreme God.

Matthew 6: 24 and Luke 16: 13 both say the same thing, Jesus saying, “No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and mammon.”

Since man has rejected all attempts by the Creator to set things right. He has abandoned us, left us to our own devices, leaving us to wallow in our self-created misery. In John 12: 31 is evidence why all of this evil is happening, “Now is the judgment of this world, now shall the ruler of this world be cast out;”

To understand this message, you have to first understand that the intellect is different from the physical brain; that a force not physical, but intangible is manipulating the physical body. Your arms do not move because they independently want to move. They move because they are a part of a bigger arrangement; if you cut the arm off and let it lie on the ground, it will not move. The movement is caused by the effect this intangible force (our will) has on the larger arrangement (our body). The Bible says we are part of an even larger arrangement that allows for our will, to be manipulated by another force outside of our control. And that we have a choice; one that is moral in temperament and one that is not. The reason you see all of the horrors in this world in not because of God, but because of the choices of our ancestors and our own personal choices, unfortunately most people pick the immoral one.

Nothing finite can be infinite (eternal). Since the universe is made of finite things (matter, time, space), it therefor must be created by something without time (timeless), thus making it eternal. If it is eternal, it must be infinite, and if its the Creator, it must be God.

The universe changes, and time is the measure of change. How many changes have happened before right now? If you claim an infinite number of changes (which is impossible because you can not have an infinite amount of finite things), it is a logically impossible to conclude we could ever have reached this moment in time. In a world of cause and effect (which we live in), there can not be an infinite regress (an infinite amount of cause and effect reactions to get to a certain cause).

Allow me to rephrase. Imagine that the Earth orbits the sun every 365 days (it does). Now, on Mars, a year is much longer than an Earth year, being 687 Earth days (basically double). So, for every 2 years of Mars, Earth has circled the sun approximately 4 times. Now, imagine that this has been going on for eternity. By your logic, they would both have circled the sun the exact same amount of times, because its been going on forever (this is clearly impossible). This shows the impossibility of an infinite regress, whereby there could not have been an infinite amount of (x) before right now, in a finite universe based on time.

Now, back to God. God exists outside of time, in Eternity. God created time, and time is irrelevant to Him. God is Eternal, not created. Firstly, you have 2 choices; either everything came from nothing (which is impossible), or something always existed and created us. You have no other choice. Take a moment to think about that, remembering that it can not exist in time, that would be impossible. Time can not be eternal.

This thing that always existed would be considered Eternal, having transcended time, space, and matter, being everlasting, having always existed. If you argue this is impossible, I would argue the contrary; it is impossible for this Eternal ‘thing’ to not exist, because the alternative is that nothing existed, which could only produce nothing. So, something always existed, and is therefor Eternal.

Now, for something to be Eternal, it can not consist of time, because time must have had a beginning. We exist in a universe of causality, so an infinite regress is impossible; there could not have been an infinite amount of time before right now, because we never would have reached this moment in time. That means time had a beginning, and whatever created time exists without time, beyond time, in timelessness; Eternity.

So, this Eternal Creator, created time, and the universe. This Eternal Creator clearly is extremely powerful, because the energy of the trillions of stars in the known universe were created by this Creator. And obviously, the Creator is extremely intelligent, having created an intelligent being such as mankind and a world in which to populate with it.

Nothing finite can be infinite (eternal). Since the universe is made of finite things (matter, time, space), it therefor must be created by something without time (timeless), thus making it eternal. If it is eternal, it must be infinite, and if its the Creator, it must be God.

The universe changes, and time is the measure of change. How many changes have happened before right now? If you claim an infinite number of changes (which is impossible because you can not have an infinite amount of finite things), it is a logically impossible to conclude we could ever have reached this moment in time. In a world of cause and effect (which we live in), there can not be an infinite regress (an infinite amount of cause and effect reactions to get to a certain cause).

Allow me to rephrase. Imagine that the Earth orbits the sun every 365 days (it does). Now, on Mars, a year is much longer than an Earth year, being 687 Earth days (basically double). So, for every 2 years of Mars, Earth has circled the sun approximately 4 times. Now, imagine that this has been going on for eternity. By your logic, they would both have circled the sun the exact same amount of times, because its been going on forever (this is clearly impossible). This shows the impossibility of an infinite regress, whereby there could not have been an infinite amount of (x) before right now, in a finite universe based on time.

Now, back to God. God exists outside of time, in Eternity. God created time, and time is irrelevant to Him. God is Eternal, not created. Firstly, you have 2 choices; either everything came from nothing (which is impossible), or something always existed and created us. You have no other choice. Take a moment to think about that, remembering that it can not exist in time, that would be impossible. Time can not be eternal.

This thing that always existed would be considered Eternal, having transcended time, space, and matter, being everlasting, having always existed. If you argue this is impossible, I would argue the contrary; it is impossible for this Eternal ‘thing’ to not exist, because the alternative is that nothing existed, which could only produce nothing. So, something always existed, and is therefor Eternal.

Now, for something to be Eternal, it can not consist of time, because time must have had a beginning. We exist in a universe of causality, so an infinite regress is impossible; there could not have been an infinite amount of time before right now, because we never would have reached this moment in time. That means time had a beginning, and whatever created time exists without time, beyond time, in timelessness; Eternity.

So, this Eternal Creator, created time, and the universe. This Eternal Creator clearly is extremely powerful, because the energy of the trillions of stars in the known universe were created by this Creator. And obviously, the Creator is extremely intelligent, having created an intelligent being such as mankind and a world in which to populate with it.

this guy has the answer http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vEXGKzH0F9c

yes!!!

The Universe is not eternal. It had a beginning. The Universe always existing is not scientific. Matter, time, and space are finite and had a beginning. The Universe is dependent on time. Einstein showed that time and space are manifestations of the same thing; spacetime. Spacetime is finite and had a beginning. Time is dependent upon space and cannot be separated from it. Similarly, space cannot exist without time. Time is essential to measure anything. Without it, space cannot be measured, and cannot exist. Because spacetime is finite matter itself also has to be finite. Einstein showed that matter is a manifestation of energy. Without space there would be nowhere for energy to manifest into matter. Without time, when do you put matter? Matter, time, space, and energy are all dependent upon each other. The Universe could not have existed without time. This throws off the Universe existing as a singularity. The Universe had to have had a beginning because time had a beginning. The Universe could not have come about by itself. It had to be created.

In advance of matter and spacetime there was nothing. How can something come from nothing? There is absolutely no way. Something had to have existed prior to matter and spacetime. This something can only be God. Was there a point in time when he was created? Time began a finite amount of time ago. Prior to the beginning of time there was nothingness. There was no time. God existed prior to time. Therefore, there was never a point in time when he was created. He always existed. He exists outside of time and is eternal. God is not limited to matter and spacetime because he created these things. He is not bound by the Laws of Physics. He is all powerful. Because God is not consisted of matter he is immaterial. He cannot be seen, touched, tasted, or smelled. Because he is not limited to space he is omnipresent. Finally, because God exists outside of time he is eternal. He sees the past, present, and future at the same instant. Also, God can never be measured or proven scientifically because he is not consisted of matter and spacetime. You cannot understand God with science. The only way you can know God is by believing in him with your heart and soul. You must have faith in him.

Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.

Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Hebrews 11:3 By faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that the things which are seen were not made of things which are visible.

I have given evidence that obliterates scientific theory with regard to Creation. I have shown that the Bible gives a better account of the history of life than does evolutionary theory. I have shown that Evolutionists have abandoned their theory and accepted the Biblical version as fact (with a scientific name of course), but wont admit to it. I have shown that the Evolutionary stance on the creation of our Universe cannot be true, based on the unquestioned Laws of Thermodynamics. I have shown that even if the Big Bang did happen there has to be a God to make it happen. I have shown that the Biblical account of planet placement has more credibility than the Big Bang account. I have shown that chromosome numbers in animals is not consistent with evolutionary theory.

I have given enough evidence to disprove your assertion and accredit mine. Since you aren’t able to invalidate my assertions with anything but personal pining, I have succeeded in this debate in showing that there is a God. And unless you can come up with credible evidence to the contrary, I stand victorious. :-P

Im not looking for uniformity in our thoughts, just the expression of them so “I” can learn from it. I know that there have been incidences in my life, that have occurred outside of the realm of known probabilities, that cannot be attributed to me or anyone else around me. Along with these occurrences was an awakening, a new perception, an opening of my mind that was unavailable to me before them. They were not from drugs or alcohol, I hadn’t had a drink in 15 years and the only drug I take is aspirin, if absolutely necessary. Until I find a better explanation, I attribute it to God, our Creator.

If you haven’t had a similar experience I can appreciate your not understanding the impact it has had on my life, but don’t belittle it.

If you have nothing more to say about your belief, either for fear of vulnerability or being off topic I can appreciate that. So thank you for sharing your belief. At least now I can understand where they originate from.

In my experience when someone gets defensive and avoids answering a direct, clearly stated question, there is something amiss.

Well, THIS experience should broaden your horizons then…

I think it is a cowardly approach to step to the front when another’s belief is being examined and hiding behind an advisor when asked about yours.

Antagonism is ALSO cowardly… and juvenile…

I am always doing research on Creation, Evolution, Religion, Science and technology. Often I do more than 30 hours per week.

One would think with such vigorous research, you’d have made a breakthrough by now…

You may infact have a valid stance. How can you justify your covert position and still have everyone else on FunAdvice look at it as valid and mature.

…everyone else on FunAdvice? You mean YOU. A large percentage of the FunAdvice community, including several Advisors, DO know my stance, they may or may not necessarily AGREE with it, but they DO understand it.

Personally, unless you are willing to be a mature adult and disclose, I would rather you didnt respond to my posts.

I’ve disclosed that information several times, you simply havent been paying attention… as usual…

rnealw: As you know from personal experience, I also have a view different than most.

Captainassassin: In my experience when someone gets defensive and avoids answering a direct, clearly stated question, there is something amiss. And given the fact that rnealw, an advisor, is defending your secretive position, gives me even more concern.

I think it is a cowardly approach to step to the front when another’s belief is being examined and hiding behind an advisor when asked about yours.

I am always doing research on Creation, Evolution, Religion, Science and technology. Often I do more than 30 hours per week. I have backed up everything I have said with reference, and if more is needed, ask.

You may infact have a valid stance. How can you justify your covert position and still have everyone else on FunAdvice look at it as valid and mature.

Personally, unless you are willing to be a mature adult and disclose, I would rather you didnt respond to my posts.

I just don’t know. This world is sooo confusing! Right? I mean, just think about it? Everything about it. Even, how things were made. The screen you are looking at right now. And how we can see what we are typing, and when we click something, the screen changes. What im saying is that. There are so many wonderous things about this planet. I just try not ‘wasting my life’ thinking about them, and actually enjoy life itself, for what it is. However it is what it is..

I know a lot of other people are different. You want to find out these mysteries. But people have spend hundreds and hundreds of years trying to. So why waste time reading so called ‘facts’, which are really just other peoples’ opinions are on it. Cough Bible Cough!

What did God do during that eternity before he created everything? If God was all that existed back then, what disturbed the eternal equilibrium and compelled him to create? Was he bored? Was he lonely?

Furthermore…

if God is omnipotent, then the assumption that freewill is necessary for happiness is false. If God could make it a rule that only beings with freewill may experience happiness, then he could just as easily have made it a rule that only robots may experience happiness. The latter option is clearly superior, since perfect robots will never make decisions which could render them or their creator unhappy, whereas beings with freewill could. A perfect and omnipotent God who creates beings capable of ruining their own happiness is impossible.

Elone,

I’m not interested in convincing you that god doesn’t exist either so I’m glad we got that straight. What I’m deeply troubled about is your confusion and lack of knowledge regarding science.

Why would I be interested in what a law professor has to say about evolution if you dismiss Charles Darwin out of hand? By the way, Darwin’s theory (“a more or less verified or established explanation accounting for known facts or phenomena” - Dictionary.com) has been tested and challenged for many years now and it still holds up. I went to college at a conservative Christian school and we learned evolution. I worked in a hospital research facility and we used evolutionary biology to answer questions and do research. We never found Darwin’s theory lacking and we didn’t crack a Bible open to find any answers.

You didn’t answer my question about vaccines and medications so I will. We use evolutionary biology to predict how organisms will change in the next year(s). We don’t use Genesis and we don’t use sensationalist material. Just plain time-tested science.

I realize that you won’t take my word for it and you shouldn’t believe me on the basis of my word alone. However, I hope someone will start thinking. We could use more of that here.

This debate kind of reminds me of Candidate Debates! One is attempting to do what others will not, and one is arguing with him/herself. In a debate keep name calling out, as it signifies so many issues that should be dealt with along with the inability to communicate, and if scientific evidence is your primary arguement, then please feel free to use it.

The inconsistancies and name calling tend to make your stand on any subject a little less believable. An example in the Candidacy race when I do not hear a short concise self-assured answer I automatically take a few points off their credibility.

Just a thought.

As for Is There A God? Well I have not attempted to prove nor disprove this, as I think the idea is in the power of belief and faith. Some may choose to believe, and others will not, so be it. I would be the perfect example of a failed Christian in that I have a degree of concern for all living creatures and their wellbeing, but not enough that I would try to convince them that God loves them and that they could have eternal life. Are you kidding! Life is too short and there are way too many personality disorders, unhealthy behaviors, and medical mysteries, that I would like to investigate, after I raise healthy, happy, well-adjusted children. :) Take Care, Love, and Grace

eleni: Nobody can prove anything beyond refute and we aren’t debating logic here. We can only give evidence for and against based on our understanding today. If I have misrepresented anything, please by all means, show me the error of my ways. The only reason we are having this debate is because Darwin, using poor scientific principles, came up with a hunch (“An intuitive feeling or a premonition. ” Am. Her. Dict.) and passed it off as a theory (“A set of statements or principles devised to explain a group of facts or phenomena, especially one that has been repeatedly tested or is widely accepted and can be used to make predictions about natural phenomena.” Am. Her. Dict.).

http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/scopes/evolut.htm

Read the above article. It is by a law professor and gives a pretty good idea of what the “Scopes monkey trial” was all about. Based on a verdict bought with ridicule and intimidation and having more to do with social concerns than of evolution, Atheists have used it to “prove” that God doesn’t exist.

My purpose here is not to convince you or captainassassin of anything. It is to show young impressionable people who are interested in the ‘truth’ that what has been crammed down their throat all through school as ‘scientific fact’ is nothing more than a hunch. And the man who made this hunch was in no way qualified to make it. AND Atheists under the guise of unbiased scientists have nothing, absolutely nothing, in the way of evidence, EXCEPT the Scopes trial and dishonest science to prove their case

Actually, you’ve set up an either/or situation which is a logical fallacy. You’ve shown a lack of understading of the laws of thermodynamics. You’ve also shown a complete misunderstanding of genetics.

If you had actually proven these things beyond refute, don’t you think the Institute for Creation Research or some such place would be paying you tons?

I think it would be more useful for you to explain modern medical advances such as flu vaccines. Do scientists make those based on the predictions of evolutionary biology or do they read a certain chapter in Genesis?

If you choose to believe in God based on faith, that’s fine. But don’t pretend you have scientific evidence. You don’t. Science by its very nature deals with the natural world and not the supernatural.

well I am agnostic but if I was to answer that question NO! there is no proof that God existed or is real. the whole point of beliveing in God and to trust in him would be pointless if there were proof you wouldnt have to belive or put faith to anything, I am agnostic , which there are many different types, mine is I belive there is a god or gods but I do not believe there is any way to prove it ,so day by day I live for God even tho im not sure if he exists or believe he is real. but I do to some extent

yeah, whatever. let me tell you the only thing I have heard about 2012 leading to destruction. there is a cycle in which the earth’s center of gravity moves farther from and closer to the direct center of the sun. in 2012 it will be as close to the center of the sun as is possible. this will mean that from now until 2012 heat waves will increase and for those of you who didn’t know, heat waves are actually the number one weather killer-they kill more every year the hurricanes, tornadoes, floods, or anything else weather related. this could mean suffering, but the end of the world is not coming.

in addition, in the near future an asteroid is predicting to come near earth. after passing earth, if can either fly into space never to be seen again, or it may pass through a small pocket or keyhole in the atmosphere that will cause it to circle back and depending on what happens after that it could potentially hit earth and have a similar effect to what killed the dinosaurs. that would not happen until 2021.

besides, anything that would end the world would end the world by scientific routine, not by force of a higher being.

are we really so big headed to think that we are what matters? that there is a god who focuses supremely on us, and on nothing else? in the big picture of the solar system, the galaxy, and the universe we are no more than a mere spec of dust. are we really so conceded to believe that there is a god who cares only about that spec of dust? that that god would care enough about our actions on the tiny pinhead of a planet to kill everything on it?

if you look at the big picture, god might explain why things happen, but if you look at the even bigger picture, god seems unreal, and if real, he seems like quite the idiot. after all, do you walk around your house monitoring and looking after one spec of dust?

wow…that definitely didnt happen.

anybody who had their heart stop for 15 minutes would probably hallucinate anyways…

elone is doing an amazing job =) if you’ve felt the presence of God in your life… than that’s enough proof… He’s obviously here.

And there is NO proof that God doesn’t exist… please try again makinpeace

Absolutely there is God, who lookafter & supervise all the activities and will reward us on the basis of our acts & deads we are doing here in our lives—just admit God is all where present please

do you remember the time you spent in the belly of your respectable mother ?? No, Never you will remember that time but it is fact that you have spent less or more than one year there in belly, just like that reality, this whole world is like a belly & we re passing time wd the grace of God but do not see but its reality he found here or there every where and will reward us on our acts & deads—shabir

Well, there are stories, such as the one about Moses and the Ark, I saw on the discovery channel that there is an ark in cased in Ice in some mountain on the Applilation Mountain Trail I think that’s where they were filming, you could see a giant boat shape, and they could chip pieces of wood out of the ice. That’s some proof I guess, I’m a Christian, but I am not hardcore about religion. But you asked, I supplied.

• Rob

I cant say anything in words to help you to believe in god… But can I make a mere suggestion? First, clear your head of all the beliefs that have been put into your head by people, places, and things…now I know you have probably heard the words, “faith the size of a mustard seed”, if you can just grasp a little bitty bit of faith I think you would be suprised by how much proof GOD himself will provide for you.

so I talked to some people at school…we had quite the debate in one of my classes, they were three very religious people and they were so patient and open minded, they answered my questions the best they could using their own thoughts on the matter and really and truly they were much better at convincing me of anything than anyone on any forum. though they did not make me believe in god, they had such a good approach to the topic that it made me at least not shoot down faith all together. if only everybody one here had the same approach…

So… in YOUR mind, a person can ONLY either believe in creationism, or evolution? Hmmm?

And I’m not criticizing creationism, I’m criticizing YOUR DISTORTED VIEWS on creationism vs. evolution

You really should pay more attention.

Captainassassin: Am I right in saying that you believe that you evolved instead of being created?

NO - - Like I said before, you don’t even KNOW my standpoint.

If you have nothing more to say about your belief, either for fear of vulnerability or being off topic I can appreciate that. So thank you for sharing your belief. At least now I can understand where they originate from.

You assume too much…

I can definitely see the god entity as a futuristic man that has tapped into the cosmic consciousness, maybe through super computers beyond our current imagination and learned something from it..

That’s an interesting theory…

Alright there’s only one way to settle this.

Build a time machine to go to the beginning of the Earth to find out how we became into existence.

Now where can we get our hands on a flux capacitor?

xox Sika

rnealw: He criticizes Creationism and says he isnt an evolutionist. I would like to know where he stands on the matter since he is so vocal.

If we are the result of environmental happenstance, why is man, the highest form of life on earth, polluting the air, water and land? All needed for survival.

MONEY

Please explain how this can be a successful survival strategy?

They care more about making money NOW, than saving the planet later…

One last thought…if God created everything, how was God created? matter does not come from nothing, scientifically, and if you tell me God is just a concept then that furthers my point that God is not real but merely a concoction of people’s minds.

Wow, guys! You have beliefs, I just wanted some different opinions, Not a full-blown arguement. Props to captianassin, his theory, along with some others, makes for a lot of clarity. Although a mystery, everyone has an opinion on this due to their prior-knowlege.

He has abandoned us, left us to our own devices, leaving us to wallow in our self-created misery.

So… YOUR God blames future generations for the mistakes of their ancestors… how juvenile.

A supreme being would not act in such a moronic manner. And for FUTURE reference, anything found in the Bible IS NOT evidence of God’s existence. Its just a book. Whether or not you believe it to be the ‘word of God’ is irrelevant. It still remains unprovable evidence, and USING unprovable evidence AS evidence of God’s existence, provides NO EVIDENCE WHATSOEVER.

Is there really ANY proof of ‘god’ that’s not In the bible? If you think there is, challenge my thinking properly, I don’t want to argue on New Years Eve. I don’t find any convincing evidence in God, but hearing yours would be facinating, I love finding how people think.

I’ve asked this question, and so far, there’s only been ONE decent answer.

People can formulate and speculate all they want; they can find evidence to support their theories, but they CAN’T PROVE ANYTHING.

My purpose here is not to convince you or captainassassin of anything. It is to show young impressionable people who are interested in the ‘truth’ that what has been crammed down their throat all through school as ‘scientific fact’ is nothing more than a hunch.

Science has proven countless numbers of its theories to be TRUE. Religion has proven NOTHING. So, with that in mind, Science has more credibility.

When people of religious faith do something extraordinarily self-sacrificing or generous, that the rest of us couldn’t even imagine doing, that could be considered ‘proof’ that their God is giving them strength or motivation to do it.

Does that include the human bombs?

Don’t try to confuse ‘observational study’ with scientific FACT…

Because this study is an observational study (one that simply watches what happens in the real world without actively controlling any of the conditions or randomizing the participants), it cannot be said that religious attendance increases life expectancy or that it doesn’t. We can only conclude that there is an association between religious attendance and increased life expectancy. They are linked, but we don’t know why.

If the world was created, and we did not evolve, why does the first painting of adam and eve clearly show they had belly buttons?

http://www.latribunedelart.com/Expositions_2004/Rubens_-_Adam_et_Eve.JPG

I do not think that the bible can be used as something left from god because how was the bible written? by god himself? isnt it possible that something could be lost in translation? a man who supposedly communicated with god wrote down what he found out, is it not possible that this man was insane? thinking he was communicating with the lord when really he was dreaming?

I have given enough evidence to disprove your assertion and accredit mine.

Really? And what assertion would that be? Do you even KNOW my assertion?

He left us a book telling us why.

…you can’t prove that either. A ‘perfect’ being wouldn’t leave a book with so many errors, contradictions and missing chapters.

…and your longwinded post is IRRELEVANT. Since you failed to read the question:

Is there really ANY proof of ‘god’ that’s not In the bible?

You havent said anything about the scientific evidence. Why?

…why should I? Science can’t DISPROVE God’s existence, no more than that book can PROVE God’s existence.

Shadows2weaves20: Yet there is more evidence in support of God than there is against it . As I have shown in my previous post, Science on its own merit disproves itself. When you include a source outside of the laws of physics, it becomes feasible.

Captain assassin: You asked if there is a God why would he allow all of this suffering. He left us a book telling us why.

You only question the validity of my belief. You havent said anything about the scientific evidence. Why?

If there is a God…why does it continue to sit back and watch BILLIONS of its apparent children & animals that it loves suffer??

Example ONE

that’s not and example of nonexistance. . . . But it is a decent example of free will.

* There is also plenty of evidence that DOESN’T support it. Do you simply overlook it?

Really? Cut and paste some. . . .

If there is a God…why does it continue to sit back and watch BILLIONS of its apparent children & animals that it loves suffer??

Example ONE

I, with all my heart, soul and intellect absolutely know that there is a God because the evidence supports it.

There is also plenty of evidence that DOESN’T support it. Do you simply overlook it?

OMG its all to weriod, you think about how we got here, and then before that and before that

Im christian not through choice but I dont rele believe theres a god but its all to weriod to think how we actually came onto this earth

happy new year people have a good en lol!!! peace

sikashimmer - I totally agree with you! just be happy that you are here at all! and also, elone, I didn’t know that darwins theory was discarded! but im glad I learned it now =]

I believe we have plenty of Proof of God’s existance, BUT I’m not going to try to list it here because I know it is an open invitation for flaming and Bashing Which I do not believe this site was put here for. . . .

NOBODY knows who or what God is.

NOW you’re starting to be sensible…

Those of us who have felt the influence of God in our life can attest to the fact that there is something, whether it is internal or external that has a profound influence on our life.

Whoops… I spoke too soon. Allow me to make some minor corrections, that coincide with the previous quote:

“Those of us who have felt WHAT WE BELIEVE TO BE the influence of God in our life can attest to OUR BELIEF that there is something, whether it is internal or external that has a profound influence on our life.”

We can keep this on topic. NOBODY knows who or what God is. Those of us who have felt the influence of God in our life can attest to the fact that there is something, whether it is internal or external that has a profound influence on our life. I can definitely see the god entity as a futuristic man that has tapped into the cosmic consciousness, maybe through super computers beyond our current imagination and learned something from it.. Like seeing how man would develop if given ideal circumstances (Garden of Eden). If this thread does get closed, I would like to explore this possibility in another thread.

God is supernatural. That means He exists ABOVE the laws of nature. Therefore, it is impossible to prove His existence or non-existence through natural or scientific methods. However, 2 years ago I could barely breathe, then a healing evangelist called John Mellor came to my Church. He told us that Jesus still heals people today. I thought maybe he was a weirdo, but decided I had nothing to lose but my illness. John prayed for me, and I felt a warm tingling in my chest. My x-rays show the scars from where my lungs were ravaged by the virus that attacked me all throughout my life, but now? I breathe clearly, I can walk, run, and have even taken up aerobics! People can tell me God isn’t real, but it means nothing to me, because now I am healed and set free! Love Bekky.

No you didn’t.

You on your best day could only PROVIDE EVIDENCE to support your OPINION. Even if you COULD manage to disprove ONE scientific theory, that will not affect all the other theories that science has proven RIGHT; theories that you would be an idiot (or more so) to deny. Or do you also think the world is flat, and at the center of the universe? Quit side-stepping the truth and PAY ATTENTION.

Science has proven countless numbers of its theories to be TRUE. Religion has proven NOTHING

There are two options here. Either everything created itself naturally or it was created by an outside source. We call that source God.

Those are the only two options YOU can think of. And calling ANY outside source GOD is just… stupid.

I proved that without violating the laws of thermodynamics it could not have happened naturally.

You didn’t prove anything, you only theorized. Besides, those laws are man-made, thereby imperfect.

There are two options here. Either everything created itself naturally or it was created by an outside source. The premise is that one of them has to be true at the exclusion of the other. I proved that without violating the laws of thermodynamics it could not have happened naturally. Therefore the other option has to be true; there is an outside source. We call that source God.

The only thing I cut and paste is web links and quotes, everything else is typed by hand.

You’ve only provided evidence to support a THEORY. You cherry-pick the few flaws that science has made, while side-stepping its many successes. There have been countless scientific theories PROVEN to be true. So far, religion have proven NOTHING.

Bible gives a better account of the history of life than does evolutionary theory.

This isn’t a debate on Creation vs. Evolution, and I’m not a proponent of EITHER. You need to pay attention to the thread, and cut & paste LESS.

I can’t prove that God doesn’t exist any more than a believer can prove that he does. But what I can tell you with certainty as one with a science degree is that Elone is totally confused and doesn’t understand physics, biology or geology. By all means read the links provided and then study deeper to see what science really has to say about these topics. Every point Elone made has been refuted time and time again.

* If the world was created, and we did not evolve, why does the first painting of adam and eve clearly show they had belly buttons?

http://www.latribunedelart.com/Expositions_2004/Rubens_-_Adam_et_Eve.JPG

I’d say because it was painted a few thousand years AFTER they lived. . .

When you look at every step of the Creation / Evolution process the questions that science cannot answer can be answered by an intelligent outside source or energy.

Look at the Big Bang. First let’s look at NASA’s view: http://liftoff.msfc.nasa.gov/academy/universe/b_bang.html

It is impossible according to the laws of physics. Below is a website that explains the laws in plain understandable terms.

http://www.emc.maricopa.edu/faculty/farabee/BIOBK/BioBookEner1.html

The second law states: “in all energy exchanges, if no energy enters or leaves the system, the potential energy of the state will always be less than that of the initial state.”

Looking at this from a scientific point of view; it is believed that “in the beginning”, before there was a Universe, there was this ‘ cosmic egg’, a point about the size of a hydrogen nucleus that was somehow acted upon (by an unknown source) and exploded it into what is now called the Universe. Science says that all of the energy and matter existing at that time existed inside of this speck.

The second law says that if the egg ‘exploded’, all energy released and all matter created when added up, would be less than the energy and matter contained in the hydrogen nucleus…unless it was acted upon by an external source of energy. Science says there was no external source; the speck is all there was. It is impossible!! But if you add God into the equation as an external source, it becomes feasible. Similar to what happens when man created the atom bomb.

The first law states: “Energy can be changed from one form to another, but it cannot be created or destroyed. The total amount of energy and matter in the Universe remains constant, merely changing from one form to another.”

If all of the energy and matter that existed before the Big Bang was contained in this ‘speck’, and energy and matter cannot be created, where did all of the millions and millions of galaxies come from. It is impossible according to science for this to have happened.

The next step, according to science is impossible also. Science says that in the first billionth of a second (or thereabout) after the Big Bang, all of the matter that was supposed to have been created, was thrown out into space so fast, that 4 billion years later, we can detect with a radio telescope, the energy of this event. Einstein showed in his equation E=m(c*c) that this is impossible, nothing can travel faster than the speed of light. That is beside the point. Even Newton’s law of Inertia says it is impossible.

Newton’s first law of motion states: “An object at rest tends to stay at rest and an object in motion tends to stay in motion with the same speed and in the same direction unless acted upon by an unbalanced force.”

http://www.glenbrook.k12.il.us/gbssci/phys/Class/newtlaws/u2l1b.html

If this explosion did happen, according to Newton, all of this matter should still be moving at the rate of (4 billion light years per billionth of a second) and since there was nothing out there to stop it, it shouldn’t have stopped as it did unless…according to Newton it was, “acted upon by an unbalanced force”. It is impossible to get our Universe out of the Big Bang…unless you add an external source of energy; God.

Physicists who study the galaxy say that the only reason life can exist on earth is because Jupiter is exactly where it needs to be to counter the effect of the sun’s gravity. The gravity of Jupiter counters the effect of the sun’s gravity and keeps the earth’s orbit almost circular, varying by only a few million miles. Without Jupiter being the size it is and placed where it is, the earth’s orbit would be so elliptical it would not allow life to exist on it.

Physicists have found quite a few earth- like planets orbiting suns similar to our sun, but the orbit is not suitable for life. The Bible, a book written thousands of years before there was any science at all, says that the earth and other planets were “set” in their place by an external force called God so he could create life on it.

Now let us get to Darwin. When he went to the Galapagos Islands he noticed a number of odd animals, one in particular was a finch. This finch, having arrived on the islands found the competition for the limited food supply so great that there wasn’t enough for survival and procreation. This finch turned to vampirism for its food, pecking the legs of larger birds and drinking the blood for sustenance. He mistook this observation of an animal’s ability to adapt to its environment for immediate survival and extrapolated it into evidence that animals evolved from one species into another. Without any evidence other than his observations, believers in his theory managed to convince a court of law, through ridicule and intimidation, that the Bible was wrong and man evolved from apes.

Then along comes the discovery of the Cambrian Explosion.

http://www.ucmp.berkeley.edu/cambrian/burgess.html

Darwin, because he had no scientific background he didn’t have the credentials to be making any theories. He dropped out of both medical school and his studies in theology. The thing I find amazing is that the ‘real’ scientists of his time jumped on his bandwagon. Darwin was aware of the Cambrian evidence but, because of his lack of education on the subject, he decided to exclude its significance.

The evidence shows a sudden burst of new life in a relatively short time period, with no evolutionary history leading up to it. There are 54 phyla represented in the Cambrian evidence, more than are living today. Immediately below this fossil evidence is a layer of one-celled organisms, some linked in chains, and absolutely no evolutionary links between the two.

It was the discovery of the Cambrian fossils that ultimately led to the demise of Darwin’s infamous theory. Evolutions cringed at the discoveries and hurried to find a new explanation, after all it showed just as the Bible had said; life was created intact and it did not evolve step by step. In their educated arrogance, and embarrassment they renamed Biblical Creation and called it Punctuated Equilibrium.

It is hard to find any sites that are not so “intellectualized” that the average person can understand what is being said about Punctuated Equilibrium. Intellectualizing is a known defense mechanism for psychologically distancing yourself from another person. You talk in terms that cannot be completely understood by the “unitiated” or “ignorant” and the conversation or situation quickly dissipates. Here is a typical example: http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/punc-eq.html

Now let’s get to the Genome evidence. If there was in fact an evolution from a one-celled organism to higher animal forms and then to man, the chromosome count would show an increase in number from one in the lowest forms to the highest number in man, the most advanced (supposedly) animal on the planet. But that is not what is shown in the chromosome count of different species, in fact in some families like the canines and felines have a separate chromosome count for each species. Man the most advanced has 46, while all canines have more (50, 64 & 73). To make it worse, even skunks have more chromosomes (the striped skunk has 50). A protozoon called the radiolaria; a one-celled organism has over 800. It doesn’t go from a higher count to a lower count because the mink has 30.

The only way this can make any sense is if some intelligent force spliced together the chromosomes necessary to create specific organisms. Science is finding out that it is a combination of chromosomes that determine some traits.

http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg19626324.100?DCMP=NLC-nletterbanner&nsref=mg19626324.100

In order for genes to have evolved from an evolutionary process it would need to have developed a very complex means to manufacture the gene, another very complex code reader to interpret the genetic code, a complex manufacturing system to make the raw materials and a complex mechanism to make it all come together. If any one of these parts failed it wouldn’t work. And all of this is supposed to have come from an inorganic primeval soup.

Look up the complexity of an amino acid, it is mind-boggling and there are 23 of them to make a protein molecule. Within the 46 chromosomes of man are an estimated 35,000 genes. http://www.genetics.gsk.com/chromosomes.htm

How many genes are in the Radiolaria I mentioned earlier, with over 800 chromosomes? They are one of the most primitive life forms on the planet; how did it all come together without some kind of intelligent supervision or planning?

Is there a God? My evidence shows that with a God all that we know about the Universe, our solar system and life on the planet Earth can be easily explained in scientific terms. Science has broken the most important rule about providing evidence; if the foundation on which you base your theories is proved wrong, everything supported by it is wrong.
I, with all my heart, soul and intellect absolutely know that there is a God because the evidence supports it. Have a happy New Year! Good night.

hey there is a GOD and he is real and dont let the nonbelievers brain wash you caus they will cause you to go to hell wich isn’t good and listen there will always b a GOD and only one GOD cause there is only one GOD and that is it!:)

Um. . . . Your link is dead. . . . interesting theory. . . . . . Did you come up with it or someone else?

* Science has proven countless numbers of its theories to be TRUE. Religion has proven NOTHING.

Science has also proven that people with an active religious life tend to live longer and Healthier. http://www.cesla.med.ucla.edu/Documents/oped/5-18-97.htm http://www.webmd.com/news/20000809/religious-people-live-longer-than-nonbelievers http://longevity.about.com/od/longevityboosters/a/religion_life.htm

Seems Belief in God is good for your health.

Elone. . . Captain isn’t hiding behind anyone. . . Personally I would feel safe with a Blue and white guy that looks like William Wallace hiding behind me.

Well, what else caused the big bang?

YES!!!

U SOULDN’T ASK THAT QUESTION…U I’LL GO TO HELL

I definitely do not think that is any sort of accurate analogy… there is scientific proof of us being in our mother…

Hi there, captainassassin, I’m talking about ‘extraordinarily generous or self-sacrificing’, not ‘incredibly selfish and self-sacrificing’ actions.

Suicide bombing is, unfortunatiely, the evidence of the worst depths of our human nature, not of God. You can’t rule out people like Mother Theresa, Oskar Schindler or the Dalai Lama just because others (for example Japanese kamikazi bombers, not just current suicide bombers) have been manipulated in the name of some kind of ideal - not even in the name of their faith necessarily, just their cause.

Some people see ‘faith in action’ as a kind of proof. When people of religious faith do something extraordinarily self-sacrificing or generous, that the rest of us couldn’t even imagine doing, that could be considered ‘proof’ that their God is giving them strength or motivation to do it. Mother Theresa’s work with dying people in India may be an example of that kind of ‘proof’.

lol okay, that last one made me smile. but that was getting really interesting to read.

What happened to our debate about God? Somehow we shifted over to a conversation about conversation…

points

…HE did it.

…only if you let it. You CHOOSE to let it, instead of utilizing your ‘research’ skills, to uncover the details.

A conversation is the assumption of understanding, and becomes more assuming if the details are lacking.

…on… what?

The ‘how did it all begin’ ponderance? Or the ‘what is our purpose in relation to the universe” ponderance?

What is your take on it?

the thing with believing in God… Is FAITH! Proof has nothing to do with it.

Going off-topic now, hmmm? That’s a good way to lock the thread…

Time travel is a valid stance. It is an option I havent ruled out either.

What it sikashimmer We’ll get acused of taking side. . .

Time travel… there’s a whole other debate, my lovely…

* Captainassassin: Why are you afraid to share your viewpoint?

I thought he did that a lot. . . . .

Captainassassin: Why are you afraid to share your viewpoint?

Captain? Is that a new look?

Captainassassin: Am I right in saying that you believe that you evolved instead of being created?

Its NOT

Well, now you’re bringing up a WHOLE other debate… perspective…

…as opposed to the zealous alternative.

They are linked, AND YOU’LL BE BURNED FOR HERESY OF YOU SAY OTHERWISE!

They are linked, but we don’t know why.

That’s science for ya.

I just disproved Science’s credibility. DUH!

Because it was painted by someone who wasn’t paying attention to detail. Or who simply didn’t care…

elone… I love your answers… I think you did marveously !!! My hat is off to you…

God Bless…

Plainwhitets–I’m not sure we know what the common ancestor is yet. I think that’s what is referred to as the “missing link.”

Accordint to the first and second laws of themodynamics the Big Bang could have only happened with an outside source of energy and God fits the bill.

Darwin’s theory was discarded when the Cambrian Explosion was discovered.

Why does there have to be a definitive answer to “”how we got here””?

You’re here. living, breathing. Love it and live it.

I don’t take either side… cause it doesn’t matter how we got here. No one “”really”” knows. But we’re here.

On funadvice… Arguing about something that no one truly knows the answer to.

I wonder if I can make a flux capacitor out of household materials? hmmm..

xox Sika

elone, Captain has a point of view its just not one many will or can understand. . .

GOD answered my prayer and now I am a better person!!!

evilbible.com

How is money a survival strategy?

Evolution, ever heard of the Darwin Theory? Human beings evolved from apes, how they got there, is a mystery. Mysteries can be solved, however…

there is a god period ! lol :D if there wasent then… how would we be here.. ?

Actually, Darwin’s theory does NOT say we evolved from apes. Humans and apes have a common ancestor.

thekangaroo: People do have freewill. And I don’t see very many happy ones. Pharmaceutical companies are making a fortune on mood altering drugs because of depression, bipolar disorder, psychosis and similar mental disorders. This is a natural development of evolution?

If we are the result of environmental happenstance, why is man, the highest form of life on earth, polluting the air, water and land? All needed for survival. Please explain how this can be a successful survival strategy?

Well, what ancestor might that be?

yes there is a god I mean who did this world and us ! think about it ! would you be here ?

What is the proof and alternative to how we got here if there isnt?

Captain? Is that a new look?

I got a new hair cut…