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What religion, besides Cargo Cult, has observable verifiable manifestations? And would those manifestations be proof to the extend that its religious doctrinal claims deserve a place in reality?
Depending upon your definition of "Cargo Cult", I would have to reply "none"... (unless you are referring to the rock and roll group by the name of "Cargo Cult").
Your definition of the term "Cargo Cult", in itself, is not definite, of course...only that you state that it is a "religion". So, for the sake of discussion, I have excluded the improbable rock and roll group based on that fact, and I have cited two definitions which are easily available from Wikipedia on the internet as the basis for my answer.
Wikipedia has the following two statements:
"Cargo cult science is a term used by Richard Feynman in his 1974 Caltech commencement address to describe work that has the semblance of being scientific, but is missing "a kind of scientific integrity, a principle of scientific thought that corresponds to a kind of utter honesty".
"A cargo cult may appear in tribal societies in the wake of interaction with technologically advanced, non-native cultures. The cult is focused on obtaining the material wealth of the advanced culture through magical thinking, religious rituals and practices, believing that the wealth was intended for them by their deities and ancestors."
In otherwords, "Cargo Cult" as the "religion" would be a tribal religion based on what is "thought to be true" instead of "scientifically proven".
Therefore, in your first question:
"What religion, besides Cargo Cult, has observable verifiable manifestations?"
... based on the two statements from Wikipedia, the word "verifiable" in your question mandates the answer to be "none" because when you say "besides Cargo Cult", you are implying that Cargo Cult "is" a religion that has observable manifestations that are verifiable, which it does not by the very definition of the term "Cargo Cult". And, I sincerely don't know of any religion wherein any manifestations have been "scientifically verified" to the extent that they are proven to be as they are claimed to be.
In Christianity, the triune God is believed to have "manifested" himself as Jesus Christ. It is by "faith" that people believe that Jesus Christ is God. (It is important to note that some faiths only believe Jesus Christ to be a prophet, and "not" the son of God).
I do not believe that there is ever recorded "scientific proof" in any religion wherein "religious manifestations" were scientifically proven. (They use electrical impulse meters, and other similar equipment, to record electrical fluctuations in places where paranormal activities are suppose to be taking place, but I don't believe that corresponds to any religion that I have heard of).
In light of your second question:
... "And would those manifestations be proof to the extend that its religious doctrinal claims deserve a place in reality? "
This question is in the assumption that the first question was answered positively... which is was not. Therefore, this question simply does not apply.
I should think that to obtain any different answer than what I have stated, you would most likely have to better define "Cargo Cult" as you are using it and take careful consideration to the term "verifiable". Perhaps a better explainatio by what methods you would consider these manifestations to be verified would be quite helpful if not what I discovered them to be defined as.
I hope this helps some. Good Luck !
:-)
Depending upon your definition of "Cargo Cult", I would have to reply "none"... (unless you are referring to the rock and roll group by the name of "Cargo Cult").
Your definition of the term "Cargo Cult", in itself, is not definite, of course...only that you state that it is a "religion". So, for the sake of discussion, I have excluded the improbable rock and roll group based on that fact, and I have cited two definitions which are easily available from Wikipedia on the internet as the basis for my answer.
Wikipedia has the following two statements:
"Cargo cult science is a term used by Richard Feynman in his 1974 Caltech commencement address to describe work that has the semblance of being scientific, but is missing "a kind of scientific integrity, a principle of scientific thought that corresponds to a kind of utter honesty".
"A cargo cult may appear in tribal societies in the wake of interaction with technologically advanced, non-native cultures. The cult is focused on obtaining the material wealth of the advanced culture through magical thinking, religious rituals and practices, believing that the wealth was intended for them by their deities and ancestors."
In otherwords, "Cargo Cult" as the "religion" would be a tribal religion based on what is "thought to be true" instead of "scientifically proven".
Therefore, in your first question:
"What religion, besides Cargo Cult, has observable verifiable manifestations?"
... based on the two statements from Wikipedia, the word "verifiable" in your question mandates the answer to be "none" because when you say "besides Cargo Cult", you are implying that Cargo Cult "is" a religion that has observable manifestations that are verifiable, which it does not by the very definition of the term "Cargo Cult". And, I sincerely don't know of any religion wherein any manifestations have been "scientifically verified" to the extent that they are proven to be as they are claimed to be.
In Christianity, the triune God is believed to have "manifested" himself as Jesus Christ. It is by "faith" that people believe that Jesus Christ is God. (It is important to note that some faiths only believe Jesus Christ to be a prophet, and "not" the son of God).
I do not believe that there is ever recorded "scientific proof" in any religion wherein "religious manifestations" were scientifically proven. (They use electrical impulse meters, and other similar equipment, to record electrical fluctuations in places where paranormal activities are suppose to be taking place, but I don't believe that corresponds to any religion that I have heard of).
In light of your second question:
... "And would those manifestations be proof to the extend that its religious doctrinal claims deserve a place in reality? "
This question is in the assumption that the first question was answered positively... which is was not. Therefore, this question simply does not apply.
I should think that to obtain any different answer than what I have stated, you would most likely have to better define "Cargo Cult" as you are using it and take careful consideration to the term "verifiable". Perhaps a better explainatio by what methods you would consider these manifestations to be verified would be quite helpful if not what I discovered them to be defined as.
I hope this helps some. Good Luck !
:-)
Thanks rubbercrutches for your elaborate answer.
When I wrote down Gargo Cult, I was thinking indeed of 'tribal societies in the wake of interaction with technologically advanced, non-native cultures.' and in particular a 'cult (that) is focused on obtaining the material wealth of the advanced culture through magical thinking, religious rituals and practices, believing that the wealth was intended for them by their deities and ancestors'.
The manifestations that fit the doctrine of this believe system take place in the observable material world and can be, as such, verified by objective outsiders. Just as one can observe a pen drop as a result of the planet's gravitational pull.
The doctrine claims that a hidden deity sends cargo carrying vehicles as a result of ceremonial prayer. The prayer ceremonies seem misunderstood copies, or reenactments perhaps, of two-way radio conversations by settled outsiders that were observed by locals in the past. The ceremonial 'tools' often have the shape of radio equipment. Sometimes the 'radio' is a priestess that provides 'feed-back' in an oracleous state.
The purpose of these ceremonies is to persuade the deity to send cargo, or material wealth. This notion originates clearly from misunderstood observation of procedures followed by outsiders who never seemed to work, fix or create something. The outsiders were seen to be sitting in an office (temple) and to talk into a radio (altar) that could talk back. The outsider than did nothing but waiting until the cargo arrived. When the cargo arrived by ship or air-plane, the manifestation took place.
A small number of cargo cults do exist today. In one case, the perhaps unfortunate faithful live under a commercial aviation corridor. The high-altitude manifestations that seem to be occurring as a result from their prayer are truly overwhelming. However, their prayers for wealth from cargo are left un-answered, needles to mention.
The fact that we know that their religiosity is fallacious is of no influence on the doctrine. And do not forget that all people have the freedom to worship any religion of their choice.
Interesting is the apparent parallel between Cargo Cult and more popular religions. Many mainstream supernatural-religious claims can be explained by modern science or modern common knowledge. The omnipresent debate in the U.S. about biological diversity and the origin of the species is a contemporary example. Thor's hammer in relation with lightning and thunder is older and now resolved, I believe.
Hey Toadaly. I agree with your statement that '...the supernatural is not observable' but only simple because you and I probable have similar opinions on that. I would even say that the supernatural thus does not exist in the realm of realty at all.
However, my dictionary says under 'supernatural': "...a manifestation or event attributed to some force beyond scientific understanding or the laws of nature...".
Seen from the perspective of the more gullible religious mind -who often ignores the scientific understanding of things- an event that is not understood in terms of reality, could be experienced as supernatural and qualifies therefore -in the uninformed religious mind that is- to be attributed to a deity.
Many of our modern-day gadgets would have come across as supernatural to, let's say , a 16th century intellectual from Florence. And right so; if such an event could take place, we truly would have to speak of a supernatural event.
So, supernatural manifestations do exist, but only as ideas or notions in the minds of the uninformed and the misunderstanding. And they can, in the case of the Cargo Cults, be observed and objectively verified in reality. The fact that an objective observer might point out that the event has alternative origins from a perceived supernatural one, is likely to fall on deaf religious ears.
In fact, religious people often use the verification of the observer as an argument for their own cause but not before denying the proposed origins. Again we can see altered evolutionary ideas taking root in creationist circles. Humanistic morality is also an adoptive that found its way in christian doctrine trough this mechanism.
Well, if we use dictionary definitions of 'religion', all religions involve the supernatural, and the supernatural is not observable. So, no religions have obsrvable verifiable manifestations.
...not sure how the dictionary definition applies to cargo cults. The dictionary definition seems to be lacking (unsurprisingly).
I was more thinking of manifestations that would take place in the realm where hearing is done with one's ears and, hopefully, with an open mind too. There the heart is truly for pumping blood around the body.
I wish that you will have a merry Christmas too!
