Why do religious people degrade humans?

Why do Christians always degrade humans, saying we are "sinful" and "evil" and send themselves to hell, and in need of "salvation" from "God" / "Jesus" who are "perfect" and "good". Why do they put down humans for God?

This is not true of all christians.

We don't put down humans we just try to get through to them and warn them of the evilness of sin!

well, we are sinful, I mean, look at what the world is like today!The majority of people just dont got God.

BTW its not putting humans down for God- its stating that we are all pretty much ratbags, and He's perfect. no exaggeration here. simply the truth.

I agree with grooveon _etc_etc- C.S Lewis is a good author (very clear language, at least in the books of his that I have read)

praying 4 u
Steph

Well, we do believe Jesus and God to be perfect and good. And, as Christians and non-Christians alike have said, it takes an extraordinary amount of faith to look at the world around us and believe that humans are totally good!

That said, I do believe that humans are capable of wonderful good. But we are also capable of selfishness, war, and extraordinary cruelty. I'm not the kind of Christian who wants everyone to feel permanently terrible about themselves because they're miserable sinners. But we do sin and we are in need of a way out of the mess we create for ourselves.

That mess is what we see in our own lives now (for example I shout at my kids because I'm tired and so they misbehave - I appreciate help sorting that out, and I get it from God through prayer). The mess is also what we have in our future (that we simply aren't good enough to 'earn' our way to Heaven, so Jesus has died to save us).

So if Christians or non-Christians give or get the impression that humans are meant to wallow in their own sinfulness, and live in a perpetual state of guilt, they have only got the first part of the story. The second part of the story is that Jesus, who is perfect, has died to make us perfect in God's eyes too. God looks at us and sees, not our imperfection, but Jesus' perfection, if we have accepted Him as our Saviour.

So, that's not the answer for all religions, but from a Christian point of view, the message is not there to make people feel bad, but just to help us get the right perspective and turn to Jesus.

Many Christians seem to believe that putting humanity down raises God higher.

I remember my sister--in-law proudly showing me a poster of footprints in the sand about how the author only got through the tough times in their life because Jesus carried her. I have certainly been strong enough to get through my hard times in life with no invisible means of support. I notice that my Christian friends really seem to believe that they could not get through the trials of life without God to support them. Their religion teaches them they are weak without God and they really seem to believe it.

As far as Christians debasing themselves to God; I do notice differences between different faiths. I was raised Presbyterian and our version of Amazing Grace started like: "Amazing grace, how sweet the sound, That saved a wretch like me!" At my brother's Catholic church they changed the beginning to: "Amazing Grace, how sweet the sound that saved and set me free." I asked my SIL about this and she said most Catholics change the words because Catholicism teaches that God doesn't make junk; we are prescious in the eyes of the lord.

But the author of Amazing Grace was pretty much a 'wretch' - he was the captain of a slave ship! Othewise, yes, I like the point that God hasn't made us junk.

well, yes, but he is describing how bad his actions were, not insulting God's creation.

If Christians believe the bible, and they do,

and if they love God, and they do.

and if they care about their neighbors, and they do.

They are obliged to tell them the truth, from Gods standpoint.

what he says, and what the remedy is.

It is up to them as to whether or not they choose to belive it.

If we have truth and withhold it, what does that make us?

We suffer ridicule, to speak the truth, in love.

We do this, becase we choose to be obedient to God.

It is his command, for us to speak the truth. in love.

We have to answer to him, if we do not teach, preach, share, his word.

We choose to face the wrath of man, rather that that of God.

If we are right, you will forever thank us.

If not, then you can turn us off as an annoyance.

We do not degrade human! God tell us to help are brother in need. Proverbers 14:21 Anyone who hates his neighbors commits sin. But blessed is the person who is kind to those in need.

They think we need to be saved for our "sinful" actions which are only in nature natruel. It's obvious to me what that religion was.

The ultimate truth is he said it, I believe it, that settles it. and of course anyone saying that must also remember that where you point your finger 3 are pointing back at you. in other words we speak of ourselves first then to others.

Actually Christianity is designed to lift up Humanity. . . . Unfortunanty Humanity needs no help with being degraded. . . .

One of the problems is Christians are really good and speaking Christianese and not thinking that new or un believers don't understand a word they are saying. Sometimes we need to come out of the clouds and see what needs to be communicated.

Too true, pipet. 'Christianese' and 'Churchianity' too!

yes and half the time they don't even understand it. and they deffinatly don't see that others don't either./

EVERY WHERE that the educated man / woman BEHOLDS ~They see the OBVIOUS & apparent CHANGE .. in the PUBLIC attitudes IN the colonies & packs & mobs of pagan Catholics across this disgusting planet.

This is The complete CHANGE .. towards the NON Catholic.

MOST Catholics don’t know what the Catholic church Really HISTORICALY Teaches. /\ ~~~OR Catholics continue TO PLAY along in the incurably servile & slavish FOUNDATIONAL - PILLAR of all Romes, Roman~tic games. { THE Game of catholicism …which is.~~{ worship of IGGY~NORANCE }

The catholic church Teaches the following, in documentation & historical creed

The catholic church Teaches THAT A HERETIC IS ANYONE Who DOES NOT BELIEVE Every Article of CATHOLIC Faith

That A HERETIC is Anyone WHO IS NOT A MEMBER of the CATHOLIC Church

That HERETICS CANNOT GAIN ETERNAL LIFE Unless They GIVE UP Their FAITH & BE United With the CATHOLIC Church

The catholic church Teaches HERETICs Are NOT CHRISTIANS & DO NOT Worship the True GOD or Jesus Christ

HERETICS Are to Be CONDEMNED & PUNISHED, Even Just ON SUSPECION Alone, & Are DENIED ANY DEFENSE

ALL LAWS & Statues of ANY COUNTRY Which Prevent the CONDEMNATION & EXECUTION of Heretics ARE Null & Void

The Catholic Church Declares ALL HERETICS Anathema & HERETICS Are to BE BURNED

The catholic church Teaches

“HE IS A HERETIC who does NOT believe what the Roman Hierarchy teaches.” American Textbook of Popery, p 164 (quoting from the “Directory for the Inquisitors”).

"HERESY consists in a STUBBORN DENIAL of truths which have been DEFINED & proposed by the CHURCH as divinely revealed DOCTRINES.

"Any baptized PERSON who...obstinately DENIES or DOUBTS any of the truths PROPOSED for belief by divine & CATHOLIC FAITH, is a HERETIC." Canon 1324-1325 of the 1917 Code of Canon Law.
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Rhodes/3543/heretic.htm

“He is a HERETIC who dEVIATES from any article of FAITH.” The American Textbook of Popery, p 143, (quoting from the “Directory for the Inquisitors”).

"Whoever 'obstinately' DENIES these (Catholic) truths, the DOCTRINAL commentary of Pope John Paul II says, falls under the censure of HERESY." Our Sunday Visitor, Analysis, July 19, 1998.

A HERETIC is Anyone Who IS NOT a Member of the CATHOLIC Church

Whosoever will DEPART { From the CATHOLIC Church } must NEEDS be FOUND with HERETICS." St. Cyprian, The Epistles of Cyprian, Epistle LXXIII, #11.
http://www.ewtn.com/library/PATRISTC/ANF5_8.TXT

"So the Christian is A CATHOLIC as long as he LIVES IN THE BODY: cut off from it he becomes A HERETIC-the life of the spirit FOLLOWS not the amputated MEMBER." St. Augustine, Sermon cclxvii., # 4 (Quoted by Pope Leo XIII in Satis Cognitum (On the Unity of the

Church), Encyclical promulgated on June 29, 1896, #5.
http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/leo_xiii/encyclicals/documents/hf_l-xiii_enc_29061896_satis-cognitum_en.html

"Heretics bring SENTENCE upon themselves since they by THEIR OWN CHOICE withdraw from the CHURCH, a withdrawal which, since they are aware of it, constitutes DAMNATION.

St. Jerome: "Commentary on Titus 3:10–11."
http://www.catholic.com/library/Salvation_Outside_the_Church.asp

MISGUIDED PEOPLE attempt TO PERSUADE themselves & others THAT MEN ARE NOT SAVED ONLY IN THE CATHOLIC RELIGION, but that even heretics may attain eternal life."

Pope Gregory XVI, Summo Iugiter Studio (On Mixed Marriages), Encyclical promulgated on May 27, 1832, #2.

Heretics CANNOT Gain ETERNAL LIFE Unless They GIVE UP THEIR FAITH & BE United With the CATHOLIC Church

All OUTSIDE THE CATHOLIC CHURCH, Jews or heretics CANNOT SHARE IN ETERNAL life & will GO INTO THE EVERLASTING FIRE which was prepared for the devil & his angels, UNLESS THEY ARE JOINED TO THE CATHOLIC CHURCH

Pope Eugenius I've, in "Bull of Union with the Copts", Council of Florence, Session 11, on February 4, 1442.

Heretics DO NOT Worship the TRUE GOD or Jesus Christ

"Heretics (those who are NOT MEMBERS OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH or who DO NOT HOLD TO CATHOLIC DOCTRINE) worship a GOD WHO IS A LIAR, & a CHRIST WHO IS A LIAR."

St. Augustine, (quoted in "Patrologiae Cursus Completus: Series Graca", by Fr. J. P. Migne, Paris: 1866, 42:207).

"A MANIFEST HERETIC is NOT a CHRISTIAN

St. Cyprian, St. Athanasius, St. Augustine, St. Jerome, & others." St. Robert Bellarmine, "On the Church Militant".

Heretics Are to Be CONDEMNED & PUNISHED, Even Just ON SUSPECION ALONE, & Are DENIED Any DEFENSE

“ALL SECTS OF HERETICS ARE CONDEMNED & various PUNISHMENTS are appointed for them & their ACCOMPLICES.”

Pope Alexander I've, The American Textbook of Popery, p 135 (quoting from the “Directory for the Inquisitors”).

“For the SUSPICION ALONE OF HERESY, purgation is DEMANDED.”

The American Textbook of Popery, p 156 (quoting from the “Directory for the Inquisitors”).

“All defence is denied to heretics.” The American Textbook of Popery, p 153 (quoting from the “Directory for the Inquisitors”).

ALL HERETICS, are assuredly to BE PUNISHED with suitable penalties OVER & ABOVE the PENALTIES imposed At the council of Ferrara*, ALL HERETICS, together TO receive their DESERVED PINISHMENT with Korah, & Dathan &..."… note ~~~{ THESE GUYS were swallowed alive up in a pit & died }

Pope Eugenius I've, in Decree of the Council of Florence Against the Synod at Basel, Council of Florence, Session 7, on September 4, 1439.

(* The Penalties of expelling HERETICS who have not left the city within the said thirty days ARE TO BE EJECTED OUT OF THE CITY... DENIED them all COMMERCE & all articles NEEDED FOR HUMAN USE..

..If there are SOME WHO IGNORE these ORDERS of ours, DARING perhaps TO CONVEY ………, since it is written that THE RIGHTEOUS PLUNDERED THE UNGODLY, such persons may be DESPOILED without penalty by any of the faithful & tHEIR GOODS SHALL BE CEDED TO THE FIRST TAKERS.

"Pope Eugenius I've, in Ecclesiastical Penalties Against Members of the Basel Synod, Council of Ferrara, Session 31, February 15, 1438.

"...schismatics, blasphemers & as HERETICS, to BE PUNISHED as TRAITORS, & to have incurred the aforesaid censures & PENALTIES, & others TO BE INFLICTED, according as it shall seem good & justice shall persuade..."

Pope Eugenius I've, in Monition of the Council of Florence Against the Antipope Felix V, Session 9, on March 23, 1440.

"Heretics bring SENTENCE upon themselves since they by their own choice WITHDRAW from the CHURCH, a withdrawal which, since they are aware of it, constitutes DAMNATION."

St. Jerome: "Commentary on Titus 3:10–11."

A GENUINE CATHOLIC who CONTINUES steadfast in the catholic FAITH, who beleives - ONLY THOSE THINGS - which THE CATHOLIC CHURCH holds UNIVERSALLY

It is therefore an INDISPENSABLE OBLIGATION for ALL CATHOLICS to adhere to the faith of the Fathers, to preserve it, to die for it &, on the other hand, to DETEST the profane Men, [ any NON CATHOLIC ] to dread them, TO HARASS THEM, & to ATTACK THEM."

St. Vincent of Lerins, Commonitoria, PL 50:637, (quoted in The Apostolic Digest, by Michael Malone, Book 6: "The Book of Sentimental Excuses", Chapter 4: "The Dogmas of Faith Admit No Alteration Whatsoever".

All Laws & Statues of Any Country Which Prevent the Condemnation & Execution of Heretics Are Null & Void

“Statutes THAT IMPEDE the EXECUTION of THE DUTIES which appertain to the office of INQUISITORS are NULL & VOID.”

Pope Urban I've, The American Textbook of Popery, p. 106 (quoting from the “Directory for the Inquisitors”).

The Catholic Church Declares All Heretics Anathema

“Cardinal (Of Lorraine). Anathema to all heretics.
“Answer Anathema, anathema." The Council of Trent, "Acclamations of the Father at the Close of the Council", Edited & translated by J. Waterworth (London: Dolman, 1848).

Heretics Are to Be Burned

She ( THE Catholic Church) DOES NOT CONTENT HERSELF with persuasion, ARGUMENTS of an INTELLECTUAL & MORAL order appear to her INSUFFICIENT, & SHE has recourse to FORCE, to CORPORAL PUNISHMENT, to TORTURE."

The Rector of the Catholic Institute of Paris, H.M.A. Baudrillart, quoted in The Catholic Church, The Renassance, & Protestantism, p 182-183.

[Martin] Luther, never burned a heretic.'..This is the ignorance or impudence of Luther.

Luther is convicted of impudence & falsehood,--for that heretics were often burned by the [Catholic Church may be proved from many examples."

Jesuit Robert Bellarmine, in Disputationes de Controversiis, Tom. II, Lib. III, cap. XXII, 1628 edition.

"There are many unquestionable cases of Protestants punished as heretics in NEARLY ALL THE LANDS WHERE ROMAN CATHOLICS HAVE HAD POWER, right down to THE FRENCH REVOLUTION [of 1798]."

Catholic author G.G. Coulton, in The Death-Penalty for Heresy, Medieval Studies, No. 18, pp. 62, 1924 edition.

“A HERETIC MERITS the pains of FIRE...By THE GOSPEL, the canons, CIVIL LAW, & CUSTOM, heretics MUST BE BURNED.”

The American Textbook of Popery, p 164 (quoting from the “”).

HERE ON THE OTHER SIDE of HELL we find another BEAST ON THE...

SCATECHISM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH SECOND EDITION # 841... "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the creator...,.IN THE FIRST PLACE amongst whom ARE '''THE MUSLIMS;...

...MUSLIMS; profess to hold the faith of abraham, and together WITH US [CATHOLICS]...THEY ADORE the ONE, merciful GOD,

..thats why the pope can kiss and stroke & BOW DOWN TO the unholy quran

Popes claim in catholic catechism 2 and ed 841 that''

muslims;...these profess to hold the faith of abraham, and together with us [catholics]...they adore the one, merciful god, mankind's judge on the last day

MAY 1985 SATANS POPE John Paul II repeats ROMES DECLARATION TO AUDIENCE OF THOUSANDS

THE POPE said: “CATHOLICS Muslims, WE have MANY THINGS IN COMMON as BELIEVERS and as human beings...WE BELIEVE IN THE SAME GOD

http://www.letusreason.org/RC25.htm & http://focusonjerusalem.com/tiesthatbind.html
,,,THE CATHOLIC GOD IS THE MUSLIM GOD

THATS WHY YOUR POPE CAN KISS & STROKE AND BOW TO THE UNHOLY QURAN

http://images.google.com/images?q=photos%20%20of%20pope%20kissing%20quran&hl=en&lr=&sa=N&tab=wi

The catholic sect….Damns….and condemns…the BIBLE BELEIVER / non catholic Christ ian…… as LOST. Headed for hell…

The catholic sect….Damns….and condemns…the BIBLE BELEIVER / non catholic Christ ian…… ~~~as DESERVING of whatever punishment the POPES can manipulate their frenzied mobs of Catholics to perform…~~~at whatever point or bowel of history at any given time…possible.

The catholic sect….Damns….and condemns…the BIBLE BELEIVER / non catholic Christ ian…… as serving ANOTHER EVIL JESUS….

Rome SAYS

"Heretics / NOT MEMBERS OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH ….. DO NOT HOLD TO CATHOLIC DOCTRINE) & worship a GOD WHO IS A LIAR, & CHRIST WHO IS A LIAR."

BUT Muslims & ISLAM //OOH they ALL SERVE OUR GOD…..and we Kiss and BOW down to their QURAN
*& service ALLAH

THIS IS ROMES …ATTACK ON THE BIBLE AND ITS believers,,, [ CHRISTS CHURCH ‘ ]]] contradiction,,,IS,,manifested

/read it for yourself then no one would have to tell you, thats why people don't read the bible or get close to Jesus because the closer you get the more you see the real you. Christians are sinners too. they just have a choice to change.

I'm not Christain
I'm actually a witch & all I see is humanity destroying the earth & destroying theriselves

Hitler's Concordat with the Catholic Church (1933) http://www.newadvent.org/library/docs_ss33co.htm

THE POPE *& vatican SIGNED A CONTRACT WITH catholic HITLER demanding ALL GERMAN bishops SWEAR on the HOLY GOSPELS & ON GOD COMPLETE & LOYALITY to catholic HITLER read ART. 16

HITLER HAD 3 ARABIC ISLAMIC DIVISISIONS...IN HIS S.S///ARMY ...

POPE... RATZINGER..& ALL OF CATHOLIC ITALY...JOINED HITLER..AS WELL .

Mussoliini, Franco, Salazar, Hitler, Peron.. And almost without exception all.. the WW. l l dictators were or are Roman Catholics, at least in their education and upbringing.

DELUSIONAL & FRAUD DEFENDERs {~~~{{}}~~~ SEEM TO IGNORE the fact that while the entire Catholic country of italy Joined sides with Catholic Hitler &~~~THE POPE *& vatican SIGNED A CONTRACT WITH catholic HITLER demanding ALL GERMAN bishops SWEAR on the HOLY GOSPELS & ON GOD COMPLETE LOYALITY to catholic HITLER

The USA, France, England, Poland, Africa, WERE ALL all rewarded with the THREAT & AUCTALITY OF BEING CARPET BOMBED & ATTACKED BY CATHOLIC Italy * Germany...

The catholic is so delusional and flaky it's not even funny.

The Catholic church is a political PROSTITUTE..{.never mind the spiritual orgy of paganism she } prostitutes.

pope pius XII never ONCE ! ~...
MENTIONED THE Jews pubicly...HE put up a FEW WEALTHY, POPPULR & CONVERTED jews in the Vatican at the very end ofthe war.

Catholic & ignorant / greedy news papers gloified the catholic church...for saving the Jews...which is a bunch of garbage,,, REALLY COME ON.!

1259: Roman Catholic "synod of the archdiocese in Mainz ordered Jews to wear yellow badges."

1227: The Synod of Narbonne required Jews to wear an
oval badge. This requirement was reinstalled during the
1930's by Catholic {born & bred Hitler }, who changed the oval badge to a Star of David.

IN 306: The Catholic church Synod of Elvira banned marriages, sexual intercourse and community contacts between Christians and Jews.

IN 415: Romes St. Augustine wrote "The true image of the Hebrew is Judas Iscariot, who sells the Lord for silver. The Jew can never understand the Scriptures and forever will bear the guilt for the death of Jesus."

IN 855: Jews were exiled from Italy

IN 1096: 1 st VILE Crusade was launched Jews were challenged: "Christ-killers, embrace the Cross or die!" 12,000 Jews in the Rhine Valley alone were BUTCHERED BY CATHOLIC ARMES..JUST in the first Crusade. This CATHOLIC behavior continued for 8 additional crusades until the 9th in 1272.

THIS GOES ON & ON FOREVER...ROME & THE CATHOLIC WORLD...ARE THE ENEMIES OF ALL JEWS. & BIBLE CHRISTIANS...

To deny it is to HISTORICALY take sides with the popes when they burned scientists to death & imprisoned Galileo...Casting yourself at the altar of lies & ignoranc that is beyond evil...But catholic.

catholicsim is beyond evil

MOST CATHOLIC & LSD...CULTS BOTH SUPPORTED HITLER IN GERMANY.

HERE IS THE TEACHING OF THE MORMON CULT,,,LAID OUT BY THEIR PROPHETS..

LDS - "Those who were LESS VALIANT IN PRE-EXISTENCE and who thereby had certain spiritual restrictions imposed upon them during mortality are known to us as the NEGROES." LDS "Apostle" Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, p. 527, 1966 edition, emphasis added.

LDS - "THE NEGROES ARE NOT EQUAL WITH OTHER RACES where the receipt of certain spiritual blessings are concerned, ...but this inequality is not of man's origin. IT IS THE LORD'S DOING, is based on his eternal laws of justice, and grows out of the LACK OF SPIRITUAL VALIANCE OF THOSE CONCERNED IN THEIR FIRST ESTATE [the Mormon pre-existence]." LDS "Apostle" Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, p. 527 - 528, 1966 edition

LDS - "...[T]hrough their INDIFFERENCE or LACK OF INTEGRITY TO RIGHTEOUSNESS, [blacks] rendered themselves UNWORTHY of the Priesthood and its powers..." LDS "Historian" B. H. Roberts, The Contributor, vol. 6, pp. 296-297, as quoted in Jerald and Sandra Tanner's book entitled "The Changing World of Mormonism," p. 293,

THIS NEGRO, WHO, IN THE PRE-EXISTENCE LIVED THE TYPE OF LIFE WHICH JUSTIFIED THE LORD IN SENDING HIM TO EARTH IN THE LINEAGE OF CAIN WITH A BLACK SKIN, AND POSSIBLY BEING BORN IN DARKEST AFRICA... IN SPITE OF ALL HE DID IN THE PRE-EXISTENT LIFE, the Lord is willing, if the Negro accepts the gospel with real, sincere faith, and is really converted, to give him the blessings of baptism and the gift of the Holy Ghost. IF THAT NEGRO IS FAITHFUL ALL HIS DAYS, he can and will enter the celestial kingdom. HE WILL GO THERE AS A SERVANT, but he will get celestial glory." LDS "Apostle" Mark E. Petersen, "Race Problems - As They Affect the Church," Address delivered at Brigham Young University, Provo, Utah, August 27, 1954, as quoted in Jerald and Sandra Tanner's book entitled "The Changing World of Mormonism," p. 294.

A CURSE ON THE "SEED OF CAIN" ?
LDS - "You see some classes of the human family that are BLACK, UNCOUTH, UNCOMELY, DISAGREEABLE and LOW ... Cain might have been KILLED, and THAT WOULD HAVE PUT A TERMINATION TO THAT LINE OF HUMAN BEINGS. This was not to be, and the Lord put A MARK upon him, which is THE FLAT NOSE AND BLACK SKIN.

THIS...curse is pronounced upon the same race -- that they should be the "servants of servants;" and they will be, until that curse is removed; and the Abolitionists cannot help it, nor in the least alter that decree." LDS "Prophet" Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 7, p. 290, 1859

LDS - "CAIN WAS CURSED WITH A DARK SKIN; HE BECAME THE FATHER OF THE NEGROES, and THOSE SPIRITS WHO ARE NOT WORTHY to receive the priesthood are born through his lineage." LDS "Apostle" Bruce McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, pp. 108-109, 1966

LDS - "The gospel message of salvation is NOT CARRIED AFFIRMATIVELY TO THEM [blacks]..." LDS "Apostle" Bruce McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, p. 527, 1966

BLACKS: NO PRIESTHOOD "IN THIS LIFE" !
LDS - "Negroes IN THIS LIFE are denied the priesthood; UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES can they hold this delegation of authority from the Almighty." LDS "Apostle" Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, p. 527, 1966 edition, emphasis added. (See also LDS Pearl of Great Price, Abraham 1:20-27)

HERE THE GREAT PROPHET OF MORMONISM DECREES THAT THE BLACKS WILL NEVER BE FREE PEOPLE...AND THE CIVIL WAR WILL NOT HELP THEM...

LDS - "THE Lord decreed, until the curse is removed. Will the present struggle [the U.S. civil war] free the slave? No... Can you destroy the decrees of the Almighty? You cannot." LDS "Prophet" Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 10, p. 250, 1863.