What is up with the mormon religion?

The mormon religion seems so strict and cult-like yet they all seem to do well for money despite the tithing. Are Mormons just rich people in a club or is there some basis to the mormon religion that escapes me?

The answer to ALL life's questions can be found in THE BIBLE...just look at the evening news today, then look at the book of Revelations...they read the same...it appears JESUS return is near...please don't be left behind

John 3 : 16

From what I remember (read a small bit of the book of mormon a long time ago) their claim was that the founder - J Smith - found these golden tablets that were later stolen / hidden, etc...that detailed Jesus trip to the Americas when he was teaching the Native Americans. Moromi? or something was the prophets name, or maybe the guy that Jesus supposedly hang out with in the Americas, but either way, it's pretty close to a modern day fairy tale.

Though, there are those that say if it could happen to Moses, etc, thousands of years ago...why not a few hundred years ago the discovery of Jesus in the New World?

Why, just last night, I was having tea with God (he likes to be called g-dawg) and he was telling me that if you listen to dogs, very carefully, they're actually reciting the book of mormon backwards.

Caroline has completely misstated what Mormons believe. Why don't you ask a Mormon what he or she believes? Oh wait! Hey, I'm a Mormon.

* I believe that Jesus Christ is my Lord and Savior and the Son of God. He paid for my sins through the atonement in Gethsemane and on the cross. I believe that if I follow his teachings my life will be changed, my sins forgiven and I will have a chance to return and live with him and my Father in Heaven again.

Ziggy - perhas you could be more specific and indicate how your perceive Mormons to be cult-like? Have you ever attended a Sunday meeting at a Mormon church? I don't think anyone could leave a Sabbath meeting with the Mormons and come away thinking they are a cult.

As to riches -- I'm not sure what you base that on either? I've been a Mormon all my life and I can't say that Mormons are any more wealthy than others.

Again, Caroline, your insinuation about Mormons is, frankly, insulting.

Perhaps I stand corrected..sure hope so because all the mormons that have come to my door have called Jesus another prophet and refuted His deity to me but as a sinner you cannot follow His teachings perfectly and must depend upon His finished work at the cross for your complete forgiveness and acceptability to God..it is not a chance thing..it has been guarranteed

What a group says about God determines whether they are a cult. Christians believe that God has always been God. Mormons do not. Joseph Smith (their founder) taught: God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted Man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens.... I am going to tell you how God came to be God. We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea... {Journal of Discourses, Vol 6, pgs 3-4}. Joseph Smith also believed that there are other gods who exercise authority over our God: In the beginning, the head of the Gods called a council of the Gods; and they came together and concocted a plan to create the world and people it {Jounal of Discourses, Vol 6, pg 5}. Less than two weeks before his death, Joseph Smith added: The heads of the Gods appointed one God for us {Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pg 372}. So Mormons believe that after God the Father became a god, the gods who were his superiors appointed him to be particularly over this planet. This is heresy. The true God has always been and always will be God. He never had a beginning. He is eternal. He rules the entire universe. He did not start as something less than God, and then grow into Godhood. God the Father was not originally a man. The are no other gods over Him who have told Him what to do. Since the god of Joseph Smith is not the God of the Bible, and the Mormons serve the god of Joseph Smith, then the Mormons are a cult. It doesn't matter whether Mormons use the same terms or names in referring to their god, their finite, mutable god cannot be the true God. Just because you call a dandelion a rose, it does not make it a rose. It's still a dandelion. Likewise, the god of the Mormons will never be the God of the Bible. Furthermore, Joseph Smith's teaching that their are gods who are superior to our God indicates that they are polytheistic. That, in itself, makes them a cult.

Thankyou Shepherd because if your research is accurate then Mormons are not worshipping the God of the bible and the true Jesus after all so they are not Christians as supposed by the statements of Idsblogger

I think that the doctrines or teachings are the entire basis of a religion and if they are sand instead of rock then the entire construction falls down..going by the teachings it appears that Mormonism has been built on sand..and what is the point of discussing anything with a Mormon who ignores the teachings of the Mormon church?

Thanks for your response. I'm glad to head you have engaged in dialogue with members of the Mormon Church. Obviously, you need a little more discussion.

I only have time today to answer one of your disputes with Mormon theology. (I'll tackle others tomorrow)

1) God himself was once as we are now.

This is accurate excerpt of a doctrine that was taught by Joseph Smith and other modern prophets in the Mormon Church. It is a deep doctrine that is taught very cautiously in the church. The doctrine of Theosis (man becoming God) is not new. Nor is it unfounded in the scriptures. According to modern Christian theologian A. N. Williams (not a Mormon by the way):

What is human destiny? It is to become God. That, at least was the belief of the earliest Christians. Such an understanding is evident in the letters of St Paul (see Romans 8:11; 1 Cor 15:49; 2 Cor 8:9) and the first Christians found it in the pages of the Hebrew Bible (Ps. 82:6 quoted in John 10:34.)

The notion of our God having traveled the path of Theosis is also evident in the Bible. Take for instance Psalm 45:6-7:

Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom is a right sceptre. Thou lovest righteousness, and hatest wickedness: therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

Early Christian fathers like Ignatius of Antioch, Augustine, Tertullian. Most importantly Iraneus held the belief of Theosis dearly:

While man gradually advances and mounts towards perfection; that is, he approaches the eternal. The eternal is perfect; and this is God. Man has first to come into being, then to progress, and by progressing come to manhood, and having reached manhood to increase, and thus increasing to persevere, and persevering to be glorified, and thus see his Lord.

So I have to ask. If many of the fathers of Christianity believed in Theosis why don't you? How does your interpretation of the Bible and teachings of Christ exclude this? Why is it unfounded for Mormons to believe this?

Of course the answer to these questions can only be had through revelation and authority. What authority do you have that would trump Ignatius or Augustine or Ireneus?

I'll tackle these questions later: Subordination of God; Polytheism; Everlasting God.

For more information on deification see here:
http://fairwiki.org/index.php/Deification_of_man

Great discussion

firstly humans becoming God is certainly taught in the Scriptures..it was the original lie of satan to deceive Eve and looks like it deceived more than just her..secondly God could never have been once like we are now because we are sinners and He never was or ever could be

This is fun!

Caroline. You and I probably share similar political beliefs (I'm guessing). One of those beliefs is that Judges must interpret the Constitution by its original intent. Many evangelical Christians attribute this same notion to interpretation of the Bible.

With that said I'll simple refer to what noted non-Mormon scholar Ernst W. Benz has observed:

One can think what one wants of this doctrine of progressive deification, but one thing is certain: with this anthropology Joseph Smith is closer to the view of man held by the ancient Church than the precursors of the Augustinian doctrine of original sin.

Again, I'll address the doctrine of our God's progression in a post tomorrow.

For now I'll just ask again: What authority do you claim indicating that your interpretation of the Bible is more accurate than mine? Especially, since mine is closer to what the early Christians believed.

ldsblogger, you are very evasive..yes I do use the approach of Judges in the way they have a definition of the law and apply it to circumstances within the context and framework of that law..something which you seem to be disregarding in your approach and you are not allowing scripture to be compared with scripture so that it becomes self interpreting..you are just sidestepping the issues...why wait to tackle the important questions..they are simple...there is ONE creator God and He is THE ONE and ONLY supreme being who is the same yesterday, today and forever and never changes because He has always been perfect and is personified in Jesus who is not just a super human but fully God and fully human at the same time..there are numerous scriptural references to support this view that is held by the Christian church down through the ages..

Actually, I'm glad you responded in such a way. We agree that Judges are the arbiters of the law because of context and framework. But you missed one more characteristic: authority.

The reason we accept a Judge's interpretation of the law is that the Judge has the authority. What authority are you acting under to declare my interpretation invalid?

If you were to ask me that same question I would respond: revelation through prophets called of God.

Surely the Lord Jehovah will do nothing, except he reveal his secret unto his servants the prophets. Amos 3:7

ok perhaps we need to do a breakdown of your references..to begin Romans8:11....If then the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you then He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will through the spirit that dwells in you make your mortal bodies live...how is that speaking of humans becoming God..it is talking about the indwelling spirit of God who will cause the person in which He indwells to have a physical resurrection..doesn't say that those who have His spirit become Him!! That would be a stupid interpretation!

Ziggy's head is probably swimming. We can take this offline...

Caroline, you are free to funmail me.

Caroline and I are having a good discussion offline. I promised a follow-up answer to the subject of the theosis and the implications regarding the character of God.

We can separate theosis into two parts: a) man can become God and b) our God was once a man.

I think I've established early Christians, modern scholars and respected reference materials all admit that deification/theosis was a doctrine of the early Church.

Let me now treat part b.

The doctrine that God was once a man is not widely taught in the Mormon church. It is considered a deep doctrine that we don't know much about. Much of what has been said in the past is probably by logical analogy -- namely -- if WE as men can become Gods then our Father went through the same process.

As Shepherd and caroline have noted, the scriptures are replete with references about God being from everlasting to everlasting. The scriptures also use the term God in differing ways. The very title given to God is Elohim which literally means Gods. Let me paraphrase a modern scholar on this subject:

If 'God' refers to a title or status then the notion of God being from everlasting to everlasting is accurate and even logical. For example, the 'mayor of Boston' is also a title, but it does not refer to any given individual. Instead, it refers to any person who hold a specific office.

In short, theosis was absolutely taught by the early Saints and the status of being God is indeed from everlasting to everlasting.

Going back to what's up with the Mormon church:

* Mormons worship one God and one God only.
* We believe that Jesus Christ is part of the Godhead comprising our Father in Heaven, Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost.
* We believe that we are saved through the atonement of Jesus Christ and by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.
* We believe that the ordinances of the Gospel must be administered from someone called of God holding the holy Priesthood.
* We believe that Joseph Smith was a prophet of God through whom God restored the Church of Jesus Christ on the earth.
* We believe that the Book of Mormon is the word of God and that it is a proof case for the calling of Joseph Smith.
* We believe that the keys of the holy priesthood have now been handed down and are now held by President Gordon B. Hinckley and the Twelve Apostles.

I cannot prove this too you. But I can challenge you to read the Book of Mormon, pray and ask God whether it is true or not, and that he will speak to you through power of the Holy Ghost to confirm its authenticity.

Caroline, you are correct about Romans 8:11. The fact that the Holy Spirit comes to dwell in us does NOT make us deity. You are also right to declare there is just ONE true God.

It may come as sad news, but I must inform the LDSblogger that the Godhead is complete. No further applications are being taken for Godhood. Angels (Psalm 97:7,9), and even people (Exodus 7:1; Psalm 82:6), may be called gods in a limited sense, but none of them can become God by nature (Galatians 4:8). There is an unbridgeable gap between the Creator and the creature. The real hope of a Christian is to become like God (I John 3:2), but one will never be God. I will never possess the divine attributes of omniscience, omnipotence nor omnipresence.

The word theosis never occurs in Scripture. Yes, some Christian writers have used this term in reference to our consecration, sanctification, and ultimate union with God. But they did NOT mean that one could actually become God — with all His attributes. The LDSblogger wouldn't tell you, but even Wikipedia (the on-line encyclopedia), states: The doctrine of theosis or deification in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints differs significantly from that of orthodox Christian theology.

Furthermore, the LDSblogger uses Psalm 45:6-7 to prove that God the Father has progressed into Godhood. However, according to Hebrews 1:8-9, it is really what God the Father said to Jesus His Son. But even this does not describe some kind of progress into Godhood. Jesus possessed that with the Father before creation (John 1:1; 17:5).

God is immutable because He is perfect, and has always been so. Since one cannot improve on perfection, any change would make Him less than perfect, and then He could not be God.

At the burning bush, the Lord told Moses, I AM THAT I AM! (Exodus 3:14). This phrase reveals the absolute, and consequently, unchanging nature of God. He is the God of the eternal now. So He has always been what He is, as He shall always be.

I absolutely agree that some LDS theology differs significantly from that of orthodox Christian theology. But by Orthodox you don't mean what the original church taught through the revelations given to Paul and Peter but rather what 4th, 5th and 19th century scholars decided was doctrine.

As discussed above and admitted by numerous non-Mormon scholars, the LDS doctrine of theosis is closer to original church teachings than what is taught these days... why? Revelation.

Doesn't anyone want to take on the notion of authority? Nary a word yet to oppose me on this point.

One can claim to be a prophet, and be successful in getting others to believe it (as did Mohammed), but that still does not assure us that he really has authority to speak for God. My opinion is as good as your opinion, but the Bible (66 books) is the final authority for us today.

As I said earlier: I do not deny that God can speak to us through prophets in our day. However, the Apostle John warns us:
Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world (I John 4:1).

The only way anyone can try the spirits is to see if what that person says is corroborated by the Bible. God will not contradict Himself.

One does not have to be a prophet nor an apostle in order to try such an individual (Revelation 2:2). I have tried and found both Mohammed and Joseph Smith wanting.

wow Shepherd....you certainly are an incredibly wise man..I have been greatly blessed to read what you have to say..thankyou!

I was just browsing around today and happened upon this Question. I gotta admit that I am shocked by Shepherd's aggression -- shame on him! He started out using dehumanizing language as if such were technical terms acceptable in common discourse. Fortunately, ldsblogger joined in and his presence seems to have moderated the hate language of Shepherd, albeit the arrogance associated with believing FOR another still peaks through . I hope he has learned a lesson -- as the foremost leader of the Evangelical church recently learned, taking your pants down when you think no one is looking is naive, prideful, and offensive to the innocent.

Carolyn, why do you encourage him?

Rudy

because Rudy he is not speaking any offensive language whatsoever..you are the only one slinging insults..you should be utterly ashamed of yourself..he was only discussing what these people hold to so you had no right to rip him like that