What is the difference between catholicism & christianity?

Asked by justabloke 6 months ago, 53 answers.
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What is the difference between Catholicism & Christianity?? Or the Catholic faith & the Christian faith??

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Answered by filletofspam on Jan 30, 2008, 10:50AM
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Since Christainity has been around for almost 2,000 years (the first followers of Christ still considered themselves Jews) it has a rather elaborate family tree.

Catholicism is the trunk from which all modern forms of Christianity have branched. Early on there were other branches of Christianity that died out or were wiped out as heretical after Constantine made Christianity the Religion of the Roman Empire.

The Eastern Orthodox branch of Christianity split with the Catholic church in the 11th c. because they felt that the Catholic church was straying from the original teachings of the appostals

The Anglican Church or the Church of England formed in the 17c. largely because King Henry VIII could not get an annulment from Queen Catharine of Aragon who provided the King no male heirs. When Pope Clement VII refused an annulment King Henry started the Anglican church which gave him the annulment he sought.

Martin Luther's 95 theses challenged many aspects of the Catholic church. His challenges inspired the Protestant Reformation from which the Protestant branch of Christianity came also in the 17th c.

The Orthodox, Anglican, and Protestant are the main branches from the RCC though there are a few smaller ones. Recently in the news was Mel Gibson's Traditionalist Church which opposed Vatican 2 changes from the 1960s.

I do note that certain sects of Christians refer to themselves as Christains but not others. They see themselves as the only true Christians and believe that all others have strayed.

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Answered by sheng10 on Jan 30, 2008, 05:49AM
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maybe we can compare it with a pizza...the whole pizza is Christianity while a slice of it is Catholicism

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Answered by flossheal on Jan 30, 2008, 07:12AM
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No difference! Roman Catholics are Christians. Protestants are Christians. Orthodox churches are Christian. The centre for each is Jesus Christ. There are some differences between the churches, of course, but if we follow Jesus we are all Christians.

Answered by kameron_with_a_k on Jan 30, 2008, 07:12AM
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Christianity is any religions having to do with god and Christ
Catholicism. Is a sect. Like a subgroup. Of Christianity. They beleive god sent his only son Jesus Christ to die for the sins of Man. And all that.
There are other Christian religions. Such as Mormons. Jehovahs witness. Catholicism. Lutheran. An a whole bunch of others. Good question man

. k w/a k

Answered by mamak on Jan 30, 2008, 07:48AM
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'andyburton' needs to know the Catholic church and its followers don't worship Mary versus Jesus who is the focus of our church. We believe Jesus founded our church first as he gave the obligation to St Peter to take care of His church. So Peter is our first pope. Mary is venerated she is not our God (we have reverence to her). Without her as a vessel we wouldn't have had Jesus. God chose her and we venerate her because she accepted God's calling. We pray for her intercession which means like our attorney she will pray higher up. But we don't worship her and this is where Baptists want to differentiate themselves from us. By calling themselves Christians they try to separate from us but we are all Christians.
'kameron with a k' needs to read history books. It is stated the Jews were first, then the Catholic faith after Christ, Orthodox,then Anglican, Episcopalian, Lutheran, Presbyterian and Baptist and so on.
We are Christians but we have a pope where the other's don't. So we are not a sect but the first Church of Jesus Christ.

Hope I helped clean up what is unknown
Mama K

Answered by mamak on Jan 30, 2008, 02:11PM
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Thank You Filetofspam for giving us a history lesson. I really appreciate it.

Answered by silverwings on Jan 30, 2008, 02:37PM
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All the difference in the world.

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Answered by katydid747 on Jan 30, 2008, 02:50PM
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doctrine is the difference between all bible believing churches.

Answered by aarthur001 on Jan 30, 2008, 07:06PM
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The term Christian applies to all those believers who affirm the existence of the Trinity, the full divinity and full humanity of Christ Jesus, and the Sacrament of Baptism.

The term 'Catholic Church' uses the term 'catholic' which is the Latin word for universal. The earliest Christians used the term 'Catholic Church' in writing around the end of the 1st century (see letters of St. Ignatius of Antioch). It is meant to denote the communion of all believers: the 'one body' of Christ.

In the early centuries that followed, the Church adopted creeds in which all believers professed liturgically 'I believe in... The Holy Catholic Church' (baptism) and 'We believe in One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church' (Eucharistic Liturgy).

Most Christian ecclesial communities still profess a belief in the creeds. The institutional Church still lays claim to all four marks of the Church: oneness, holiness, catholicity and apostolicity.

While other Christian ecclesial communities also claim all four pillars, oneness and apostolicity seem to be questionable. Ever since the Reformation, Protestant groups have been splintering and spilliting off from each other over every piece of doctrine.

Along the same lines, the institutional Catholic Church has the historical ability to claim apostolicity in the form of 'apostolic succession.' The apostles (Jesus' closest followers) appointed succesors for themeselves to fulfill their mission of 'preaching the gospel to all nations' (Mt. 28:20; see Acts 1).

The successor to the office of St. Peter is the person we call the 'pope'. As the successor to St. Peter, he has the same guarantee that Christ gave to Peter: 'Amen I say to you Simon you are rock [peter] and upon this rock I will build my Church and the gates of hell will not prevail against it. Behold, I will give you the keys to the kingdom; whatever you bind of earth will be bound in heaven and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.' (Mt. 16:17-19)

The pope and the bishops in union with him make up the 'magesterium,' which is the 'sacred teaching office of the Church'. It was under magisterial authority that the Church compiled the Sacred Scriptures during the first millenium. They also have the responsibilty of interpreting the Scriptures. There there was no authority in place to interperate the bible, then anyone could start a new Church based on their own interpretation of any 5 bible verses (which is exactly what happened after the Reformation)

In Short, the Catholicism is the 'original Church' that Christ founded on St. Peter. The other Christian communities broke off from that Church throughout the centuries.

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Answered by funadvice on Jan 30, 2008, 08:49PM
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Wow, some great stuff posted here summarizing church history. Thanks especially to filletofspam and aarthur001 for your insight!

Answered by steelersfan13 on Jan 31, 2008, 09:17AM
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catholics believe in pergatory and christians dont for all I know

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Answered by aarthur001 on Feb 01, 2008, 03:50PM
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In response to Andyburton: Catholics do not worship the Virgin Mary.

I noticed someone before say that Catholics 'venerate' Mary, which is correct. But most people don't understand the difference between veneration and worship. 'Venerate' means 'to honor'. We honor Mary because she is the Mother of the Lord (see Lk 1:43; Gal 4:4). She was truly the mother of Jesus of Nazareth.

Because Jesus was perfect and blameless under the law, he followed all the commandments, including the command to 'honor thy Father and thy mother' (see Paul's letter to the Romans). We just follow Christ's example of honoring his mother.

Why do Catholics care about honoring Mary at all? Isn't she dead?

In the creed, we profess that we believe in the 'communion of saints.' The saints are those people who have died in God's grace, and are in heaven with him. We take Christ at his word that God 'is not God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive' (Lk. 20:38).

When we say we 'honor' or 'venerate' Mary (of any of the other saints) we mean that we respect her for cooperating with God's plan. The Saints are God's masterpieces. They only made it to heaven because of his grace at work in their lives. When we honor the masterpiece, we give honor to the artist that created it.

Furthermore, because the saints are 'alive in Christ' and in heaven with God, they have the ability to pray for us here on earth. St James tells us 'The prayer of the righteous man has great power in its effects' (Jas. 5:16). We know the saints are righteous people if they are in heaven, and God will listen to their prayers.

That's why everytime we 'pray to' Mary or any of the other saints, we always use the words 'pray for us.' It's just like asking your mother or your sister to pray for you. As a matter of fact, it's better than that, because mothers and sisters and everyone else on earth has a tendency to get distracted in a way that people in heaven don't have to worry about.

The Catholic Church has always tried to make it clear that we don't 'worship' mary because we recognize that Mary is not God. We worship God, the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. We ask the saints to pray for us because they are constantly in the presence of God, and can pray perfectly.

Answered by glynescampbellgreeneyes on Feb 06, 2008, 11:18AM
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Roman Catholics are what???

The Catholic system was founded by the Roman Emporer Constantine, AD 321. Constantine actually killed christians before he converted into christianity himself, however he changed the true Christ like practices by introducing paganism and changing the holy Sabbath day which is originally Saturday, Consantine was a sun god worshipper therefore took it upon them selves to change Gods holy day the seventh day to a Sunday.

Eusebius who was a bishop and a friend and flatterer of Constantine claimed that Christ had transferred the Sabbath to Sunday! Not a single testimony of the scriptures was produced in proof of the new doctrine!
The Pope is the anti-Christ! Why do I say that? Well lets first look at Exodus 20;

GODS FIRST COMMANDMENT:
Thou shall not have no other gods be fore me.

(The Catholic sun god is worshipped because the sabbath day was changed to sunday worshiping their sun god.) Broken

SECOND COMMANDMENT:
Thou shall not bow before idols.

(Meaning bowing to an image, venerate, honor)
(Every day Catholics bow to statues of Mary and images of saints) you cannot bow to a piece of concrete or wood and ask it to pray for you! it is not going to hear you or aknowledge you in any shape or form.

The Pope allows and even expects catholics to bow before him even worship him where ever he goes! (Broken)

FOURTH COMMANDMENT:
Remember the Sabbath day and keep it Holy. In it you shall do no work, for the Lord Blessed it and Hallowed it.
( Every Catholic goes to church on Sunday, and go about their normal business on the real Sabbath day.) Broken

Mathew 5:19 : Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven

Now this is the Truthful difference between Christians and the anti- Christ Catholics.
Any one that is not Catholic is called Prodestant (meaning Protesting against catholicism)

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Answered by aarthur001 on Feb 08, 2008, 09:46AM
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glynescampbellgreeneyes, I take it that you are a seventh day adventist. You raised several issues in your post that I will try to address.

First, 'The Catholic system was founded by the Roman Emporer Constantine, AD 321.'

If you read the letters of the first Christians after the Apostles, you will find that that is not so. St. Ignatius of Antioch wrote circa 105 AD that were you find acts of charity 'there you find the Catholic Church'. From the earliest days, the Church employed what is knows as the 'Apostle's Creed' as the profession of faith at baptism. It uses the phrase 'I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Holy Catholic Church, [etc.]'

As far as the celebration of the sabbath on Sunday, there are several early references for that. First is the 'didache' which was a guide for liturgical celebration in the early Church. It was written in the 1st century AD. Also there was a letter written by the Roman centurian Pleny in 112 AD. In that letter, he told his superiors about Christians who gathered 'on the first day of the week and sing hymns to Christ as to a God' We do not worship the sun-god by changing the sabbath. We worship Christ by celbrating the day of his resurrection.

Next: The 'second' commandment.

It is true that God told man not to make any graven image or to bow down and worship them. However, immediately following that passage in Exodus, God commanded the Israelites to construct the Ark of the Covenant which was marked by two 'cherebim' or angels that had faces of men. Later on, when King Solomon built the temple, there were two giant Cherebim in the holy of holies, where the priest would bow every year on the day of atonement asking for the forgiveness of the peoples sins.

God forbade the construction of idols for the purpose of worshipping idols. He did not forbid the construction of statue-like figures for the purpose of worshipping the one-true-God. In fact, he mandated that they do exactly that.

How do modern-day Catholic statues relate to that commandment? Today, we use statues of Mary and the other saints much like people use pictures of their mother or their friends who have died. It is a reminder to us that we are not alone. We believe that those who have died are 'alive in Christ'. Like the angels, they constantly behold the face of God, and have the ability to pray for us more perfectly than we can pray for ourselves.

It is true that those statues cannot pray for us, nor can they acknowledge our prayers or requests in any way. However, the people of whom the statues were meant to remind us can pray for us. The statue is just the reminder. We do not worship these people, but we do honor them as the holy men and women of God. They are the 'great cloud of witnesses' that St. Paul describes in the letter to the Hebrews (Heb. 11:1-12:1).

Worhiping the Pope: We do not worship the pope. We honor him as the successor to St. Peter and the 'keeper of the keys' (Mt. 16:19). It is not required that anyone bow down to the pope, although it is a measure of respect, just as the Israelites would bow to the king of Israel and the ancient and medeval peoples would bow to forgeign dignitaries out of respect for them and their office.

Finally: Honor the Sabbath day and keep it holy. Amen to that I say. We do celebrate the Sabbath day, as the Church has celebrated it since the first century: on the First day of the Week. Also, take the following into account: 'man was not made for the sabbath, but the sabath for man' (Mark 2:27). We try to honor the Lord's Day, but sometimes we fall short. We do believe that the Son of Man is Lord even of the sabbath (see mark 2:28).

Answered by orion on Feb 29, 2008, 12:51AM
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glynescampbellgreeneyes is of Jewish belief. I recognized several of their beliefs in what glynesc said.

I followed along and understood what glynesc said, but I believe a few points were wrong, but the majority is correct (without the anger).

Most Catholics don't know that the pope and Emperor Constantine changed the true Sabbath, the 7th day of the week, Saturday to Sunday the first day of the week, but it is very well documented by the Catholics themselves. They do not try to hide it at all. As a matter of fact there are many quotes in different books saying so, even in their own catechism .

You are correct glynesc when you said that there is no text in the entire Bible that states that the true Sabbath, Saturday was ever changed. The Catholics say the reason they changed it to Sunday was because Jesus rose from the dead on that day, but Jesus Himself never kept Sunday, but Saturday as the holy Sabbath .

God wrote the Ten Commandments with His own finger in tablets of stone. He gave them to Moses to give to his people, but Moses broke them in a fit of anger when he saw what his people had become.

God wrote the Ten Commandments again with His finger in tables of stone. The Ten Commandments were so important that God Himself wrote them in stone with His finger! And the fourth Commandments is 'Remember the Sabbath to keep it holy...' Isn't it funny, that the only Commandments that starts with 'Remember' is the only one that is not kept by all today?

The Catholic Church does, I believe, worship Mary. Even in their churches there are paintings and carvings of Mary being worshipped. There is one painting I saw with Mary being crowned by Jesus and God making her above Jesus as 'the Mother of God'

aarthur wrote:

As far as the celebration of the Sabbath on Sunday, there are several early references for that. First is the 'didache' which was a guide for liturgical celebration in the early Church. It was written in the 1st century AD. Also there was a letter written by the Roman centurian Pleny in 112 AD. In that letter, he told his superiors about Christians who gathered 'on the first day of the week and sing hymns to Christ as to a God'

I hate to call him a liar, but what he has said here is false. If you are going to say something like that you really need to post your references to prove your point, otherwise you've just made up a story to fit your purpose.

History books prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that the pope together with Emperor Constantine changed the true Sabbath to Sunday because the pagans worshipped the sun god and the RCC desired to separate themselves from the Jewish leaders.

Before this time never had a Christian ever worshipped on any other day except the true Sabbath, Saturday. From Adam down thru time to Christ's age and the Bible nothing was changed except what the Catholics did themselves. The pope put himself above God by changing the holy Sabbath from Saturday to a pagan worship day, Sunday. Jesus would have told us if He wanted to honor His resurrection by changing the day, but He did not.

The RCC also changed God's Ten Commandments to suit them as well. Take a good look at the Holy Bible, say a King James Version. Read the Commandments in Exodus then look at the Catholic Bible. You will be very surprised at what you find.

God is our Creator. He is whom we love and worship, not the RCC, but the RCC has kicked God's Ten Commandments to the side and replaced them with their own commandments! The RCC pope actually says he is 'God on earth'! This is blaspheme! And the followers actually go ahead and deify him! There is only ONE God and it is not the RCC. Wake up people before it's too late.

There are many, many differences between Catholics and Christians. I could go on, but I think I have said enough to get you thinking. Do not let man tell you what to believe. Study for yourself.

Answered by happyvagirl on Mar 16, 2008, 07:35PM
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wow.

Answered by aarthur001 on Mar 24, 2008, 08:56PM
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First, my references for the existence of the letter of Pleny as well as the 'didache' are several: 'The Lamb's Supper' and 'Swear to God' by Dr. Scott Hahn as well as 'The DaVinci Hoax.' Additionally, the text of the didache can be found in the 1st volume of the book 'Faith of the Early Fathers' compiled by Jurgens.

On the opposing side, I have not seen any citation for the assertion that the pope and Constantine collaborated to change the day of the Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday.

Second, the Catholic Church has not Changed the ten commandments from the way that they appear in the book of Exodus. If you actually count the number of verses, and the number of times God says 'thou shall' or 'thou shalt not.' you will find that there are actually 17 times. Catholics and Protestants just split them up differently.

(Protestants separate in the 1st commandment which is 'I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that place of slavery. You shall not have other gods besides me. You shall not carve idols for yourselves in the shape of anything in the sky above or on earth below or in the waters beneath. You shall not bow down and worship them For I, the Lord, am a jealous God, inflicting punishment for their fathes' wickness on the children of those who hate me down to the third and fourth generation; but bestowing mercy down to the thousandth generation, on the children of those who love me and keep my commandments.' They also combine the last two commandments which read, 'You shall not covet your neighbor's wife. You shall not covet your neighbor's house, nor his male or female slave, nor his ox or [donkey], nor anytrhing else that belongs to him.')

Third: I have not seen any citation supporting the claim that any pope, speaking in a papal capacity, declared himself to be God. On the contrary, each member of the Faithful professes at every Sunday Mass, 'We believe in one God, the Father Almighty... We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ'

Finally, I say again as the Church has professed throughout the ages, we do not worship Mary. We do not believe that she is above Jesus, because he is the rightful heir to the throne, just as the queen mother would not be above the king.

Do we honor her as the Mother of God? Yes we do. The Council of Ephesus declared in AD 431 that Mary bears the title 'Theotokos' (Greek for 'one who bears God.) They also provided a sciptural basis for that assertion.

When the fullness of time had come,God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under the law to deliver from the law thoase who were subject to it (Gal. 4:4).

The title 'Theotokos' was given in response to the Nestorian heresy which claimed that Mary was 'Christotokos' (meaning that she was only the mother of Christ the man, not God the Son). It was actually intended to be an affirmation of the divinity and oneness of Chirst. Allow me to explain.

The Council of Ephasus declared that Christ has, while having two distint natures (human and divine), he has only one 'hypostasis' (personhood). He is fully God, and fully man, but he is one person: a divine person. It is incorrect to say that he is a 'human person', because his 'personhood' is derived from his divine nature rather than his human nature. He is a divine person who assumed a human body and a human soul, and was fully human, like us in all things but sin. Therefore, the person the Mary bore in her whom was God in the flesh. Thus we give her the title, Theotokos, which means Mother of God, or more precisely 'God-bearer'.

Why do we portray Jesus crowning her? We assert that she is the woman depicted in Revelations 12: the woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and on her head a crown of 12 stars. For further reading on the subject, I suggest 'Hail Holy Queen' by Dr. Scott Hahn.

Answered by levzeroni on Apr 05, 2008, 07:11AM
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this is one of my favourite questions. you see
Christians and Catholics believe almost the same thing. there is a God and CHrist came to save us.
but Christians pray directly to God when Catholics pray to saints,
the Catholics prayers basically hit the cieling and come back down, and arent answered because God says to speak directly to him.

and another thing is Christians know they sin and ask for forgiveness so that through faith and grace and good deeds ALONE they will recieve heaven.

Catholics believe that through good deed alone they will get into heaven.

Answered by aarthur001 on Apr 15, 2008, 09:32PM
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In response to levzeroni:

It is incorrect to say: 'Christians know they sin and ask for forgiveness so that through faith and grace and good deeds ALONE they will recieve heaven. Catholics believe that through good deed alone they will get into heaven.'

The 'Catechism of the Catholic Church' (CCC) cleary asserts the necessity of both faith (as in belief) and faith acting in love (what you call good works). Since you seem to dispute that Catholics belive in the necessit of faith, I will provide a reference.

'Believing in Jesus Christ and in the One who sent him for our salvation is necessary for obtaining that salvation. 'Since without faith it is impossible to please (God)' and to attain to the fellowship of his sons, therefore without faith no one has ever attainted justification, nor will anyone obtain eternal life 'but he who endures to the end'' (CCC 161; internal quotes from 'Dei Filius' 3; cf Mt. 10:22; 24:13; Heb 11:16; Council of Trent DS 1532)

Answered by aarthur001 on Apr 22, 2008, 03:58PM
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The other part of levzeroni's response dealt with Catholic's praying to saints.

This issue was already addressed above, so I will not dwell on it long, but I will address it again briefly.

The New testament asserts that those who have died are alive in Christ. Christ himself tells the Sadducees that God calls himself the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, and that he is not the God of the dead, but of the living (see Mt. 22:32)).

When we pray to saints, we are only asking for their prayers. James' letter points out that the prayers of the just people are worth much in the eyes of God. The saints pray for us because we ask them to. It's just like asing your mother, or your friend, or your pastor to pray for you. Furthermore, the saints in heaven are like the angels: they constantly behold the face of God. Unlike our earthly friends who might forget to pray for us, the saints don't forget, because they see how depsperate our situation really is. They ask God face-to-face what our earthly intercessors may forget to ask.

Answered by orion on Apr 22, 2008, 07:25PM
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aarthur said: 'the saints in heaven are like the angels: they constantly behold the face of God. Unlike our earthly friends who might forget to pray for us, the saints don't forget,...'

The Bible tells us that the dead 'sleep' and 'know nothing' in other words when a person dies they do not go straight to heaven or hell, they stay in the grave until the trumpet call of Jesus at His second coming. Then the graves will open and all who have died shall rise. So, there are no saints in heaven.

The dead are dead in the grave. Only a very few human beings have accented into heaven. Those who were mentioned in the Bible and no more. Believing in the concept that the dead ascend into heaven as saints is teaching spiritualism, which is Satan's favorite subject...it confuses people causing doubt in God.

God said that 'in the day ye shall eat of the fruit of the tree ye shall surely die'. But Satan said 'ye shall not surely die but be as gods' Satan is telling us that we will never die and that God is wrong and if we buy into the idea that the dead are in heaven or hell then who are you believing Satan or God...I choose God and His words.

Answered by aarthur001 on Apr 26, 2008, 08:49AM
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I am familiar with the bible refering to the dead as 'those who have fallen asleep,' but I have not seen those portions saying that the dead 'know nothing.' In any case, we still hold that those who have fallen asleep in Christ are not truly dead, but are alive in Christ. Jesus refers to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob as 'living, because all live to him' (Lk. 20:38).

When Christ died on the cross, 'the tombs also were opened, and... saints who had fallen asleep were raised, and coming out of the tombs after his resurrection they went into the Holy City and appeared to many' (Mt. 27:52-53 note the use of the past tense). When St. Paul described the Old Testament saints, he said: 'Since we are surrounded by a such a great cloud of witnesses...' (12:1). The only reason that the saints can be said to be living is because of the power of Christ's sacrifice on the cross.

It has been said that only those saints who are mentioned in the Bible are in heaven and no more. I have to ask: Where in the Bible does it say that only those saints who are mentioned in the Bible are in heaven? In the Old Testament, Elijah is portrayed as being taken up in chariots of fire, but Moses dies. However, at the transfiguration, Jesus converses with both Moses and Elijah.

When Jesus tells the story about the rich man and Lazarus, he depicts Abraham as being in heaven (in fact, the Jews have referred to heaven as 'the bosom of Abraham'). Abraman converses with the rich man about the possible conversion of his friends and relatives on earth Lk. 16:22-31).

The Catholic Church does teach that the souls of the dead are in heaven, but it is not spiritualism in the strictest sense of the word. The Church also strongly affirms the belief in the resurrection of the dead. (Every Sunday at Mass, every memeber of the faithful professes the words 'We look for the resurrection of the dead' in the creed.') We don't believe that the body is bad. On the contrary, we believe that the body and the soul will be raised on the last day.

Moving on... The quote from the Book of Genesis is usually rendered in english bibles as 'In the day that you eat of it [the fruit of the tree] you shall die' (Gen 2:17). However when the verse is rendered in Hebrew, it actually contains a double 'death'; it could either be understood 'by death you shall die' or 'you shall die the death' (see 'A Father Who Keeps His Promises' by Scott Hahn). The death that mankind endures because of the sin of Adam is a physical and a spiritual death, but in Christ, we have the ability to conquer both the physical and the spiritual. Since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead; just as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

And with our faith (belief and faithfulness) in Christ, we become 'sons of God,' 'co-heirs with Christ,' and 'partakers of the divine nature' (see Gal 4:4-7; 2 Pet. 3-4).

Answered by orion on Apr 26, 2008, 05:34PM
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aarthur said:

I am familiar with the bible referring to the dead as 'those who have fallen asleep,' but I have not seen those portions saying that the dead 'know nothing.' In any case, we still hold that those who have fallen asleep in Christ are not truly dead, but are alive in Christ. Jesus refers to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob as 'living, because all live to him' (Lk. 20:38).

I said:

Ecclesiastes 9:5-6, 10, NIV. 'For the living know that they will die, but THE DEAD KNOW NOTHING; they have no further reward, and even the memory of them is forgotten. Their love, their hate and their jealousy have long since vanished; never again will they have a part in anything that happens under the sun… Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might, for in the grave, where you are going, there is neither working nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom.'

You said: When Christ died on the cross, 'the tombs also were opened, and... saints who had fallen asleep were raised, and coming out of the tombs after his resurrection they went into the Holy City and appeared to many' (Mt. 27:52-53 note the use of the past tense). When St. Paul (Saint Paul? ) described the Old Testament saints, he said: 'Since we are surrounded by a such a great cloud of witnesses...' (12:1)? (Where is this verse? It's not Mt. 12:1) The only reason that the saints can be said to be living is because of the power of Christ's sacrifice on the cross.

You asked: Where in the Bible does it say that only those saints who are mentioned in the Bible are in heaven?

I said: The Bible covers hundreds of years which was enough time to mention all who might have been taken to heaven. But only those of the Bible were mentioned and no more, which means no one else was raised from the dead and translated to heaven otherwise it would be documented in the Bible.

You said: In the Old Testament, Elijah is portrayed as being taken up in chariots of fire, but Moses dies. However, at the transfiguration, Jesus converses with both Moses and Elijah.

I said: When Jesus died some of the dead saints were raised up and entered the city and appeared to many. Those who were raised were probably great men of faith like Moses. It stands to reason that he was one of them. Therefore, it is no surprise that Moses was with Elijah while talking with Jesus at the transfiguration.

You said: When Jesus tells the story about the rich man and Lazarus, he depicts Abraham as being in heaven (in fact, the Jews have referred to heaven as 'the bosom of Abraham'). Abraman converses with the rich man about the possible conversion of his friends and relatives on earth Lk. 16:22-31).

I said: The rich man and Lazarus is a parable. A parable is a short fictitious story that illustrates a moral attitude or a religious principle.

In Luke 16:23 talks about a rich man being in Hades (Hell). If you believe as I, which you've already said you did, then the dead do not ascend to heaven or descend into hell upon their death, but 'sleep' in the grave until Jesus returns. This points to it being a parable.

Also, do you honestly think someone in hell can see and talk to someone in heaven? I sure hope not. I would not like to think of a loved one being able to see the saints having a wonderful time in heaven while they are being tormented by the flames of hell fire. This also points to it being a parable.

What about the part where it talks about how the rich man asks Abraham to send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool his tongue; do you really think one tiny little drop of water would even make it to his tongue without be instantly evaporated? And what would one tiny drop of water do to help cool his tongue in hell? It's a parable . . . .

You said: The Catholic Church does teach that the souls of the dead are in heaven, but it is not spiritualism . The Church also strongly affirms the belief in the resurrection of the dead. We don't believe that the body is bad. On the contrary, we believe that the body and the soul will be raised on the last day.

I said: You confused me on this one. You said the RCC teaches that the souls of the dead are in heaven, but then you say that at the resurrection of the dead...(the body and the soul) will be raised from the dead on the last day, which I am taking to mean the second coming of Jesus when the graves will open and the dead shall rise...If you say the dead are already in heaven then how can you also think they'll be raised from the grave at Jesus' coming? Does God shoot them back down into their graves and raise them at His coming? Please, help me out here.

You said: The quote from the Book of Genesis is usually rendered in english bibles as 'In the day that you eat of it [the fruit of the tree] you shall die' (Gen 2:17). However when the verse is rendered in Hebrew, it actually contains a double 'death'; it could either be understood 'by death you shall die' or 'you shall die the death' The death that mankind endures because of the sin of Adam is a physical and a spiritual death, but in Christ, we have the ability to conquer both the physical and the spiritual. Since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead; just as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

I said: I have no complaints with your statement; 'because of the sin of Adam is a physical and a spiritual death, but in Christ, we have the ability to conquer both...' This was not the point I was making though.

God said that 'in the day ye shall eat of the fruit of the tree ye shall surely die'. But Satan said 'ye shall not surely die but be as gods' Satan has always told us that we will never die and that God is evil and he is good. Satan has always told us that we'd live forever if we do as he says; 'eat the fruit and be as gods'.

God teaches us that when we die we 'sleep' and 'know nothing'. Satan tells us that 'ye shall never die' and to prove he is right, Satan makes us believe that the dead are lonely spirits who want to send a message, or come to a loved one. When in all actuality it is one of Satan's evil angels masquerading as a dead loved one. This is called spiritualism; the teaching that the dead are not 'sleeping' in the graves, but elsewhere.

Answered by orion on Apr 26, 2008, 05:35PM
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aarthur lets move this to the Fun mail. ok with you?

Answered by amoeba on Apr 26, 2008, 08:06PM
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orion, what did glynescampbellgreeneyes say that made you think she was jewish?
I didn't see anything in her answer that indicated that.

Answered by amoeba on Apr 27, 2008, 06:09PM
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orion, I would love an answer. it is an interesting observation.
what did glynescampbellgreeneyes say that made you think she was jewish?
I didn't see anything in her answer that indicated that.

Answered by orion on Apr 27, 2008, 06:24PM
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glynescamp...is talking about the 7th day Sabbath, which the Jewish religion observes.

Answered by amoeba on Apr 27, 2008, 06:43PM
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'glynescamp...is talking about the 7th day Sabbath, which the Jewish religion observes.'
and several christian denominations keep the Sabbath in similar manner as in Judaism, but observance ends at Saturday sunset instead of Saturday nightfall. Seventh-day Adventists and Seventh Day Baptists have found the Sabbath an important part of their beliefs and practices since the mid-19th century. They and others believe that keeping the seventh-day Sabbath is a moral obligation arising out of the Ten Commandments, and honors God as Creator and Deliverer.

on a previous question you said that you were seventh day adventist...
ameoba said: 'The Seventh-day Adventist Church officially does not ordain women and the co-founder of the church, Ellen G. White, was a woman.'
orion said 'If this were true then why do we have a female pastor? It is because we do ordain women as pastors.'

do you not observe on the seventh day?

Answered by aarthur001 on May 01, 2008, 02:20PM
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Orion, I would be fine with moving this discussion to funmail, (although I will be leaving for the summer shortly).

There are just a few things that I think need to be clarified before we do so.

I apologize for not including the citation for the quotation, 'we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses.' It is Hebrews 12:1 (That's why I said, 'St. Paul')

You confused me in your last post with all the 'you said...I said.' When you said 'I said,' it seemed like you were trying to refer to things that you had already previously posted, but I couldn't find them in your original posts. Did you mean to say 'I say'? Also, in at least one of those 'I said' sections, you quoted things that I had said, as if they were exactly what you had said. (my point is this: the use of the terms 'you said... I said, we extermely confusing.)

Also I wish to clarify my point at the end about the fall and the redemption:
Satan's temptation to man was to 'eat of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil.' The Church has always understood that to mean that the Original Sin was a decision on the part of our first parents to decide for themselves, subjectively and arbitrarily, what is good and what is evil without reference to the instuctions of God their Father and creator.

In making this decision, mankind usurped the role of God in deciding good from evil and visa versa, in an attempt to become 'like gods' be disobeying God.

The result of this original sin is 'to die by death.' Mankind suffered both physical and spiritual death. By the grace of God, we have the opportunity to be brought into new life by the power of Christ's sacrifice on the cross. He is the conqueror of both the physical and the spritual death.

Through Christ, we have the opportunity to become 'sons of God,' 'coheirs with Christ,' and Partakers of the divine nature (2 Pet 1:4; Gal 4:4-7). When the devil tempted our parents, he said that we would 'be like gods' by disobeying God. By contrast, God gives us the opportunity to be the perfect reflection of Christ (God incarnate) by joining ourselves to Christ, and 'his body, which is the Church' (see Eph. chapters 4-5; also Col 1:24).

There is a distinction to be made between the souls of those who have died in Christ (those who have 'fallen asleep') and those who have died without repentence (the 'damned').

All humanity is subject to the physical death (except those that live until the last judgement). As such, all who have died the physical death (including Moses) can be (and have been) refered to as 'the dead.' However, there are those who have fallen asleep in Christ fall into a different category. Moses is one of these (who was conversing with Christ at the transfiguration before the dead came 'out of the tombs after his resurrection they went into the Holy City and appeared to many' (Mt. 27:52-53).

I submit that there are two categories of 'dead': everyone who has suffered the physical death, and those who are damned. There is a reason why I make this distinction. The Old Testament law clearly forbids communication with the dead. It also clearly depicts the death of Moses. Therefore, if this distinction did not exist, then Christ Jesus would have been guilty of violating the Old Testament law by communicating with Moses at the Transfiguration.

I do not think that Christ violated the law in this case, because Moses was not one of the damned. His spiritual state was such that he would rise from the dead at the resurrection. Thus, Jesus could speak with him without violating the Law. He was dead insofar as he had suffered the physical death. However, he was the sort of person Christ was talking about when he told the Saducees that God said, 'I Am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, he is not God of the dead, but of the living' (Mt. 22:32).

In answer to the question asked: 'If you say the dead are already in heaven then how can you also think they'll be raised from the grave at Jesus' coming? Does God shoot them back down into their graves and raise them at His coming?'

I profess, along with the Church, that the souls (the soul = the intellect + the will) of those who have died are united to God, in the Holy Spirit, through His Son Christ Jesus. As such, they have the ability to converse with God (in other words, they can pray for us just like people on earth pray for us).

At the same time, I profess that their bodies are dead. They are buried in the ground, and they will rise on the last day.

This is a very metaphysically loaded topic. For further reading, I suggest the first part of the 'Summa Theologicae' by St. Thomas Aquinas. He wrote extensively about the nature of mankind. Some of the major points relevant to this discussion are: the soul is distinct from the body; the intellect is something that is part of the soul rather than part of the body; man is a body/soul composite rather than a 'ghost in a machine'; etc..

The book of Eccelsiastes: This particular Old Testament book asserts many things. Among them is: 'I have seen everything that is done under the sun; and behold, all is vanity and a striving after wind' (Ecc 1:14). The author repeats this phrase about seven billion times in that book. The book's basic point is that all of life is meaningless. However, I think that this book needs to be seen differently in the light of the revelation of God through Christ. Many of the claims that Qoheleth makes could even be read, 'this is how it would be if there was no such person as Christ Jesus.'

Spritualism: Ther are several definitios of the term 'Spiritualism'. One of them is the attempted control or reliance on the Spirits of the dead, which was described above. Another is the belief the Physical world is evil, and only the spiritual world is good (This is also called 'manecheanism' and the Church condemned it as a heresy in the middle ages.) Originally, I had though that the poster was refering to this form of spiritualism. It appears that I was mistaken.

I agree that the phenomenon described above could be considered spiritualism, and it is most certaintly illict. (As a matter of fact, the Church offically condemns the practice of communicating with the dead as described above. See 'The Catechism of the Catholic Church' (CCC) paragraphs 2115-2117).

That said, the Church's belief in the communion of saints is not the same as spiritualism described above. The communion of saints consists of those souls who have died (physically) in Christ, and are alive to God (see Mt. 22:32; Heb. 12:1). They have the ability to pray to God, and God listens to their prayers because they are righteous, and 'the prayer of the righteous man has power in its effects (James 5:16). All their prayers are directed towards Christ Jesus, because they are members of the Church, which is his body, and he is their head.

It is possible that the dead may appear to people, as they did after the resurrection (as described in Matthew 27:52-53). However, we must discern such experiences prayerfully. It is entirely possible that these may be deceptions of the devil (as noted above). The Church's official position on these occurances is that they may occur, but they are not binding (meaning we don't have to accept them) except for the people to whom they occur. Other people may believe in them, but they are not required to do so. They fall under the category of 'private revelation.' All 'public revelation' ended with the death of John the Evangelist, and 'no new public revelation is to be expected before the glorious manifestation of our Lord Jesus Christ' ('Dei Verbum' 4; CCC 66).

I would be glad to move future discussions to funmail, but I will continue to respond to postings of this thread if they arise.

Answered by prestondakness on May 21, 2008, 08:25PM
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Catholicism,,the Roman,,tic….sect…& its…claims,…are NEVER found in the bible…..or Christian

Catholic church followers INDEED worship Mary & ANOTHER CHRIST, & ANOTHER GOSPEL ~~ANOTHER way & HAVE another baptism..

A FALSE CHRIST Jesus AND MARY & GOSPEL is the EVIL focus & DEMANDS OF THIS FRAUD QUEEN / CHURCH

THE CATHOLIC CLAIMS…. Jesus founded our church first as he gave the obligation to St Peter to take care of His church. So Peter is our first pope.
This is a lie

Peter is Never given ANY KEYS / or MORE special POWERS., Than any other KEYS / POWERS~ GIVEN TO ALL believers = in the ENTIRE BIBLE “;

JESUS ASKED…..PETER….WHO AM I…… ;;. “;.W H O….A M….I “; PETER ANSWERS…..The Christ~Son OF The Living GOD !

IN FACT in Mat 16:17 Jesus Christ ~~Blessed Simon Barjona saying… “ Flesh and blood hath not revealed it to U~, but my Father WHO is in heaven” 18 I say also TO you That you art PETROS, Greek 4074- Πέτρος ~/Petros~/ pet'-ros~ / (small piece of) rock;~

And upon THIS ..PETRA Greek 4073- πέτρα petra pet'-ra ~ (Huge mass of) rock~ (literally / figuratively ~I will build my church

Matthew DID NOT translate keph / PETER …. as petros both times: 'You are petros and upon this petros I will build……

THE holy spirit,,who, ,Wrote & GAVE PROPHECY & INTERPERTATION…..TO the PRESERVED….. ENTIRE bible….DOES NOT…EVER ever ///….EVER .CALL….MEN….. ROCKS….on which HIS CHURCH is BUILT…GOD / & CHRIST,,,SOLA….IS the ONLY SOLA foundation & SOLA ROCK

IN fact Peter. Declared CLEARLY……..&. 1Pe 2:5 YOU ; ] AS WELL[ …. also, ARE Like LIVING stones, you are building up a spiritual house, a holy priesthood, OFFERING up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.

NOT Crackers & LAITYs . Forbidden JUICE / WINE

Here 1:1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ,…. HERE WRITING to strangers ./ CHRIST IANS / the Elect BELEIVERS…saying …“; YOU ; AS WELL [ …. also, ARE as LIVING stones. “; .JUST LIKE ME. “; also.. LIKEWISE “; …like ~CHRIST, the ROCK. Building HIS spiritual….BODY.

This catholic is lying to you……& its ALL they do, IN A great PAGAN, ROMAN TIC, FRENZY “; & SERPENTine~ “; SLY ~ like UNIVERSIAL Orgy & A Spiritual Prostituted Circle…of Lies / “; Diverting, Leaping, Climbing, Falling & Twisting.

IN fact Jesus declared “” Mat 16:19 “; I will give to U.. { Peter} Keys TO the kingdom of heaven: . ] That=Greek 2532 καί kai kahee = That ] That whatsoever you bind on earth is BOUND in heaven: and whatsoever you will loose on earth is loosed in heaven.

SUDDENLY HERE NOW…we find Jesus HAVING departed from Galilee, to Judaea beyond Jordan “; And great multitudes followed him

Here, now Days later Jesus is NOW DECLARING to a whole ( & great multitude in Mat 2 CHAPTERS DOWN ….CHAPTER 18 [[ not 16 “; days ago…now DAYS LATER… ]] here THESE VERY, VERY, VERY SAME exact SAME KEYS “; Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven [ meaning’] 19 = That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing in MY NAME I will be in their MIDST….THESE..ARE THE KEYS…..[Jesus name * faith in Him ALONE,, SOLA … is these KEYS….

NOT a pot belly POPE…on A Roman tic….Million dollar porta~ potty throne kissing qurans & signing contracts,, with catholic Hitler…
Hitler's Concordat with the Catholic Church (1933) http://www.newadvent.org/library/docs_ss33co.htm

In fact“; THE POPE *& vatican DID SIGN a CONTRACT with catholic HITLER demanding ALL german bishops SWEAR on the HOLY GOSPELS & on GOD COMPLETE loyality to catholic HITLER

HITLER had 3 arabic ISLAMIC divisisions...in his S.S///army ...POPE... RATZINGER..& all of catholic italy...joined HITLER..

This fraud man / POPE ;’ FAKE CHRIST & PETER …..KISSED & BOWED down to to the quran http://images.google.com/images?q=photos%20%20of%20pope%20kissing%20quran&hl=en&lr=&sa=N&tab=wi

MAY 1985 SATANS POPE John Paul I repeats ROMES DECLARATION TO AUDIENCE OF THOUSANDS THE POPE said: “CATHOLICS Muslims, we have many things in common as believers and as human beings...We believe in the same God

http://www.letusreason.org/RC25.htm & http://focusonjerusalem.com/tiesthatbind.html & ttp://www.takeheed.net/CATHOLICISMandISLAMTMcM.htm & http://groups.google.com/group/Bible-Prophecy-News/browse_thread/thread/bfaa305f6cdcd969/47b679d81423de4d

THESE catholics ALL claim to WORSHIP ALLAH & JESUS“;,,,but CLEARLY THEY are too buzy watching for traditional excrements to OOZE from the orifices of their pagan idols they serVe,

their POPE & VATICAN spendT MILLIONS making TRIPS to check the bodily fluids“;..THEY DO NOT,,SERVE Jesus or Allah…

there is no difference, between the word Christian,,& catholic,,other than the fact…that the bible declared…the VERY 1 ST..Christians,,were at Antioch…before,,,70 Ad……