If you have a problem with homosexuality because of the bible...

Everytime I confront people with this evidence I seem to get no response, but I am curious.
People who believe homosexuality is wrong because of the bible, do you also believe slavery is ok, slaves can be struck, women who have had sex should be stoned...

to death, and women shouldn't talk in church?

Exodus 21: vs 2-6 'If thou buy an Hebrew servant, six years he shall serve: and in the seventh he shall go out free for nothing. If he came in by himself, he shall go out by himself: if he were married, then his wife shall go out with him. If his master have given him a wife, and she have born him sons or daughters; the wife and her children shall be her master's, and he shall go out by himself. And if the servant shall plainly say, I love my master, my wife, and my children; I will not go out free: Then his master shall bring him unto the judges; he shall also bring him to the door, or unto the door post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an aul; and he shall serve him forever.'

Slaves, obey your human masters with fear and trembling, in the sincerity of your heart, as to Christ.' (Ephesians 6:5)

'Slaves, obey your human masters in everything; don't work only while being watched, in order to please men, but work wholeheartedly, fearing the Lord.' (Colossians 3:22)

'Slaves are to be submissive to their masters in everything, and to be well-pleasing, not talking back .' (Titus 2:9)

'Slaves, submit yourselves to your masters with all respect, not only to the good and gentle but also to the cruel. ' (1 Peter 2:18)

'When a man strikes his slave, male or female, with a rod and the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. But if the slave survives a day or two, he is not to be punished; for the slave is his money.' (Exodus 21:20-21)

'Women should be silent in the churches, for they are not permitted to speak, but should be submissive, as the law also says.' (1 Corinthians 14:34)

'But if ... evidences of virginity are not found for the young woman, then they shall bring out the young woman to the door of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her to death with stones...' (Deuteronomy 22:20,21)

ty, it's not fair to use the did Jesus mention it test to try to argue from absence. Jesus did not say obey the speed limit or other specific things that were not a prevalent problem at the time. He did talk about fornication and lust, and fornication includes having sex with one that you are not married to. Granted, he specifically said that if a man looks at a woman to lust after her then he has committed sin in his heart, but I would surmise that you could replace woman with man and still have sin.

Since Jesus recognized the two shall become one (Matt 19:6) and did not recognize another form of union, then we can easily extrapolate that any sex outside of this marriage covenant is sin.

As to Romans, the graphic detail he goes into describing not only the unnatural lust that a man has for another or a woman for another as well as the punishment they would get in their body goes beyond simple illustration.

It definitely has two lines of progressive thought there, but we cannot ignore the sexual sin and the punishment thereof. Otherwise, why mention it at all? Surely there are other things Paul could talk about.

As far as Christians and priorities, I believe it's a human thing rather than a specifically Christian thing. I think that every person ever born considers what someone else does wrong and misses what they do wrong. Their pride wants to puff them up and look down on others.

Look at New York's ex-Governor. He both prosecuted and participated in prostitution. It was ok for him, but not for someone else in his mind.

It's easy for Christians to get upset at homosexuality and abortion because they're typically not the ones doing this kind of sin. However, many a person has left the church because the pastor dare tell someone what they should or shouldn't do with their money, how they may be gluttonous or gossiping.

In God's eyes, sin is sin, but we've come up with levels of sin, and we tend to apply them, like humans, on things that we personally do not do.

That's why Jesus' message is so radical. He basically said I'm taken care of all of your sin-- now live for me. So it's not something I have to earn, I shouldn't be doing any comparing, and though I can state what He believes is right and wrong it's ultimately for Him to judge.

are you looking for a fight. nothing is going to change a bigots mind short of an emotional experence. (ie. they have feeling for someone of the same gender or their son brings home a guy to thanksgiving) you are not going to be able to illicit that. why try? I don't believe people have control of their physical attractions, however, some people can't fathom that point of view until it hits home.

No I'm not looking for a fight. I just dont get it. People will defend their views on homosexuality by claiming God says it is wrong, and the completely ignore other things God apparently has said... I just want to understand how they compromise these two things in their head. Either everything in the bible is the word of God or it isn't. You can't pick and choose what you want...

but people can pick and choose. and they will. try not to let hypocrasy bother you.. it's not going anywhere...

Yes but people use it as a legitimate excuse to oppress others. I don't particularly care because they don't bother me any more but I dont want to watch a 13 year old being told that because she has a girlfriend she's going to hell...

BTW I find it hilarious no one has defended their postion on this. Usually religious questions get bombarded with answers

it's wednesday... church night all the good ones are busy

lol

I also wonder the same.

Plus, doesn't the bible say something about not wearing cotton or eating animals on certain days of the week? I can't remember exactly, but it was something similar.

You're not going to get a justification because the reality is that slavery was an accepted practice throughout most of human history, including all of the cultures in which Biblical authors lived. Slavery in the southern US, of course, was based exclusively on race, and the slave class was made up of people who were taken into captivity, removed from their homes, and sold in a market against their will. Ancient slavery sometimes took that form, but not always. In Paul's day, people who were in debt or living in squalor would sometimes sell themselves into slavery to improve their situation. This type of servitude described in the Pauline epistles is no different than hiring help around the house, like farm hands and maids. Of course, you also have cases where slaves were taken as spoils of war, like when the Hebrews invaded and conquered Canaan (that is, if they didn't anihilate the inhabitants first).

Anyway, for me it's not a problem to read about slavery in the Bible because I'm agnostic, but for Christians who believe the Bible is the inspired word of God, they have no choice but to accept that God apparently doesn't have problems with war and slavery, if they're done the proper way.

As for the issue of homosexuality, I frequently point out to Christians that in the story Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed for a variety of reasons, but sexual immorality wasn't the main one, it was because the people of those cities were living in luxury and deliberately allowing their poor to starve to death by refusing to sell them food or give them money.

Jesus Changed all that, or haven't you read the new testament?

Its how you look at it. you are looking at it way out of what it really is

Torikeene,

Since angel quoted quite a bit from the New Testament, she's obviously read it. I have to question, however, whether you've read Jesus's words.

Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Luk 16:17 And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail.

That's Jesus talking. Now proceed with your defense.

I mean to say that JUDGEMENT is when that should be considered, not by Christians. We are not pharisees to judge others. We are here to spread the word. I have the same issue with judgemental Christians

Ah finally some christians, ok where exactly did Jesus change all that?
Corinthians, Peter etc are in the NEW testament as far as I know...

And I'm looking at it way out of what it really is?
Please tell me what it really is then, I just quoted directly out of the bible, I didnt even put it in my own words...

The first thing that you need to understand is the context of when things were said-- who they were said to, the time that they were said, etc.

So, let's start with slavery and work our way from there... Like was previously mentioned, slavery is/was different then and now. Slavery could be equivalent to working for an employer now. The big difference between slavery that we're accustomed to and the Mosiac Code is that slaves had to be released every 7 years unless they chose to stay. Big difference-- one that recognized that even slaves were people.

And keep in mind that as early as the 1600s people sold themselves into slavery to get to America...

Now, as for Paul's statements in the New Testament about slavery and the Old Testament slavery, keep in mind the audience. The Old Testament law was given specifically to the Jewish people. The New Testament was for all peoples. Paul said that if you find yourself as a slave, then do the best you can as unto the Lord.

In fact, the book of Philemon addresses a slave and slave owner, where Paul actually encourages the owner to release the slave as a brother in Christ.

Next, women be silent in church... I don't have a problem with this. In fact, I think that unless they're singing and praying it's disruptive for men or women to be speaking out in church.

God did take sexual immorality a lot more serious in the Bible times than we do today. As early as a century or so ago there were much more admiration in this country for chastity. Do I advocate stoning? No, but I do believe that this is very serious-- much more serious than we want to think.

Lastly, although Sodom and Gomorrah were chastened primarily for their sin of pride, etc., it was evidenced in their sexual sin.

Take a look at Romans 1-- take a look at the progression of both the spiritual sin and sexual sin goes together. Then look a little further at Paul's writings at who-- or more importantly what-- will and will not be in heaven. Fornication, Homosexuality, etc. will not be there.

minthegap, thank you for your post. It's very lucid and given my past experience with religious people on this board, it's very refreshing to discuss these issues with someone like yourself.

Anyway, on the issue of Sodom and Gomorrah. If you read Ezekiel 16:49-50, the author specifies that it was social injustice which caused those cities to be destroyed: Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy. They were haughty and did detestable things before me. Therefore I did away with them as you have seen.

In addition, Lot offers his daughters to an angry mob to be gang raped, and then he sleeps with them later. Also, his wife is turned into a pillar of salt simply for looking behind at the destruction of the cities. I have a hard time seeing how Lot is righteous in this story, or how the moral of the story is God doesn't like homosexuality.

A couple thoughts on homosexuality in the Bible: never once do we find Jesus condemn it. That's interesting to me, because he spends a lot of time condemning the most chaste and righteous people of his day, the Pharisee sect. They follow the law of Moses to the letter, and yet they infuriate Jesus because all they do is judge and criticize other people.

Second, the only obvious mention of homosexuality anywhere in the New Testament is in Romans 1, as you mention. In all other writings thought to be about homosexuality, Paul uses ambiguous terms that don't actually mean homosexual. But in Romans , the point of his writing is NOT to criticize those who engage in homosexual behavior. He is writing to admonish those who are supposedly law-abiding (the Pharisee types). He's basically saying, 'if you judge other people for sinful behavior, you're basically judging yourself because you're also guilty of sin'.

So I think he's bringing up the homosexual behavior of other people so he can get the reader thinking about the types of people he or she would judge, and then say, 'you shouldn't judge them'.

Taking a look at it all, it seems to me that God is less concerned with homosexuality than he is with judging other people or refusing to help them. Which leaves me wondering, why do modern Christians seem to have their priorities so mixed up?

Torikeene,

Thank you for answering the question. Based on your answer, am I correct in assuming that you wouldn't not vote for an amendment to ban gay marriage since it isn't relevant in this life?

Okay, to put in context, as we should also keep in the correct context for women not speaking in churches... lol that would so not work in our era...

When Jesus or the apostles speak of things they are speaking to the people of their own time. Certainly we should take to heart the lessons that can be learned on our own time as well. Basically it means do your work steadfastly as for the Lord. If we say that we still have to have slaves today in order for those verses to mean anything to us it is just being hypocritical. I feel that a lot of issues people have with the bible is when Christians, who generally know the background, or context, take a verse out of context to use in an argument.

As for same sex marriage, well I think all of us are given a choice as to what to do with our own lives. We can try liviong up to standards, but it is always hard. I personally think it's ewie, but that is my personal opinion. I also personally feel it is a sin to act upon it, but I'm not going to go off spouting that it should not be legal, because then I would have a huge problem after that, I'd have to go after drinking, tobacco, strippers, caffine, etc. I'm not willing to take the choice away from others. There are ony a few issues I feel strongly enough about to make it into a crusade. The word of God, in contect, Abortion, and Abuse(in any form)

There, I've said my peice, probably with a fair share of spelling errors, because I'm in a bit of a rush, but there you have it.

But that is my point completely, it all has to do with context. Ofcourse I realize this is all contexual, my point is why doesn't anyone else? And if you realize it is contextual then why attack homosexuality but not people who have sex before marriage? Women talking in church? And why condemn slavery (and you think because they're released every 7 years it doesn't make it slavery? You think anyone would agree with you today?)

I appreciate the sincere and thoughtful answers given so far.

My question now is: if we have to judge the Bible's teachings based on the times, how do we know which ones are still valid and which are outdated?

A very good question, eleni-- perhaps a different question topic that we can answer so that this thread stays on topic? Otherwise I could take a stab at an answer here.