Can any christians clear up these problems i have with your bible?

I am an atheist. I would like Christians to help me understand some problems I have with your Bible (King James Version).

Here are the problems:

1. Where did the horses come from?

Please see Exodus 9:1-7
Let me quote Exodus 9:6-[So the Lord did this...

thing on the next day, and all the livestock of Egypt died; but of the livestock of the children of Israel, not one died.]

Please see Exodus 14:9

Let me quote this passage: [So the Egyptians pursued them, all the horses and chariots of Pharaoh, his horsemen and his army, and overtook them camping by the sea beside Pi Hahiroth, before Baal Zephon.]

Now, I am a poor, old country boy, but I see a problem here. In Exodus 9: 1-7, God kills all of the cattle, horses, donkeys, camels, oxen, and the sheep of the Egyptians. [I would like to stop here and say that your God is mighty hard on innocent animals!!!] So, what God does is kill all of the Egyptians’ livestock (see above).

In Exodus 14:9, the Pharaoh chases after the Jews with horses and chariots.

My question is where did the horses come from? God supposedly had killed all the horses in Exodus 9:1-7. I know some of you will say that “livestock” does not include horses. My dictionary says that livestock includes horses. Now for argument sake why don’t we say that the horses are not part of the livestock of the Egyptians. If we do this we have the problem of God making a boo-boo. God forgets to kill the Egyptians’ horses. And thus, the Egyptians are able to chase after the Jews. Now this makes for a better story than if the Jews had crossed the Red Sea without being chased by the Egyptians. We would not have the parting of the Red Sea and the drowning of Egyptians and their horses (again your God is hard on innocent animals).

O.K., Christians, any answers?

2. Who was in the Garden with Christ?

In Matthew 26: 36-46, we see that Christ is praying. We also see that three of Christ’s followers are there with him. We are told that they are asleep. The passages go on to describe in detail how Christ talks to his disciples while they are asleep.

So, who else was with Christ? Someone had to be there to witness the anguish of Christ and hear his words. It was not the three disciples because they were asleep. Bad time to fall asleep don’t you think? Oh, one more thing, it was dark so whoever was there must have had a flashlight!!!

O.K. Christians, any answers?

3. Do you hate your family and your life?

Let me quote Luke 14: 26-[If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters, yes, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.]

Let’s state a ground rule here that “hate” does not mean “less love”.

So, do you Christians hate your life and your families? It seems do this uneducated hick that if you want to follow Christ you have to hate your families and your life. It says it plain as day!

I know that these problems were not discussed in Sunday school. So, I know it will take awhile to come-up with the “answers”. Consult your clergy if you like. I await your answers.

Your humble servant in this, but not the next life.

Let me make sure I understand:

If we atheists don't ask questions about religion, we're closed-minded bigots.
If we atheists do ask questions about religion, we're arrogant snobs.

Did I get it right or did I miss something?

Ok, One I do not think it means horses when it saids LIVESTOCK, I think only FOOD like COWS, also, The bible has been twisted, by he romans, I am a Follower of Christ but I will not take the bible word for word, It is a map and Christ is the key. And what I was told is god told the men who wrote the bible what to put in it... but there are many other people then just the 12 men, he had followers who could of been watching or the romans could of mesed with it, I find it semi un pure

I do not want to answer all of your biblical questions, but I should like to inform you about the nex points. Horse was domesticated at about 5000 why ago in the Central Asia, let's say around the Caspian see, probably by the early Scythians. Chariot was developed much later perhaps by the early Assirians who were descendats of the early Scythians. Since chariot that was very effective in the wars of that age, it could qiuckly diffuse in all the cultures around its origin. At about 1600 before Christ the Hyscos people from Asia conquered Egypt because they used (the Hittite type) chariot in the battles against Egypt. This was the time point when Egyptians learned that what is the horse an the chariot at all. They were quite surprised. Later Egyptians could liberate themselves from the Hyksos power, but that time they also made and used the chariot as effective heavy weapon. Of cours they also breed the horse. What you cite on that all the horses were died in Egypt could have been something natural disaster e.g. epidemic illnes or similar. But from the environmental world (countries) Egypt could restart with horse-breeding easily.

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Hitt_Egypt_Perseus.png

Okay, so I'm not Christian, I'm a Wiccan, but you just sounded like sooo much fun, I actually had to take some time out of my day to asnwer your questions; after all, you asked with such kindness and respect for your fellow man and their religious beliefs:

1. regarding the murrain plague that was placed on the cattle, you can safely assume it killed the horses. But, let's remember, those affected by the plagues were those who did not fear God. In actuality, there were many Egyptians who did fear God, and they did flee the land in order to escape the plagues. They were, by the letter of the text, then called back to help Pharoah in his persecution of the Egyptian peoples. I will point you to this lovely quote from an online author labeled only as Gil Student:

From whom were the animals that drove the chariots? If you say they were from Egypt, doesn't it say (Exodus 9:6) and all the livestock of Egypt died [from the fifth plague]? If you say they were from Pharoah, doesn't it say (Exodus 9:3) [Moses said to Pharoah]: Behold, the hand of G-d is on your livestock that are in the field? If you say they were from the Jews, doesn't it say (Exodus 10:26) And our livestock, as well, will go with us- not a hoof will be left? Rather from whom were they, from the Egyptians who feared G-d [and were not affected by the plagues]. We now see that the livestock of the G-d-fearers that escaped the plague caused great hardship for the Jews [by being used for chariots to pursue them].

These horses were then used to drive the 600 + chariots the Pharoah and his people later used.

2. Two things need pointing out here: firstly, it is widely believed at this point that Matthew is not in fact written by THE Matthew, due to it being found in Greek, not Aramaic. Non-canonical secular scholars believe Matthew was actually crafted by a Jewish scholar seeking to assuage the Romans and Jews and attempting to secure a place for himself in their societies; that is why it has a softer, less threatening tone than the other Synoptic texts. By this very reason, we can assume the writing is allegorical in nature. By the same coin, we can also assume there may still well have been an Aramaic text for Matthew, that unfortunately either did not survive or is still lost to us.

If you want to go canonical though, I would point out Matthew 28:8-20; in that same text you just tried to ridicule for inconsistencies, there is written the fact that Jesus resurrected and hung out with his people for a while, during which time it is perfectly reasonable to suspect he may have recounted his last few days on earth, and in particular his conversations with the big G-O-D...after all, if I was a disciple, that's what I would ask about!

3. I will not even dignify this with an answer...instead, I'll quote directly from James Patrick Holding's website, one that, while dealing rather heavy-handedly with you wonderful atheists (despite your obvious sense of modesty and fair play), nevertheless makes an observant and studied point:

Abraham Rihbany (The Syrian Christ, 98f) points to the use of hate in the Bible as an example of linguistic extreme in an Eastern culture. There is no word, he notes, for like in the Arabic tongue. ...[T]o us Orientals the only word which can express and cordial inclination of approval is 'love'. The word is used even of casual acquaintances. Extreme language is used to express even moderate relationships.

Luke 14:26 falls into a category of extreme language, the language of absoluteness used to express a preference, and may refer to disattachment, indifference, or nonattachment without any feelings of revulsion involved. To seal this matter completely, let's look at some parallel materials which prove our point. The closest example comes from Genesis 29:30-1:

And he went in also unto Rachel, and he loved also Rachel more than Leah, and served with him yet seven other years. And when the LORD saw that Leah was hated, he opened her womb: but Rachel was barren.

Here, hated is clearly used synonymously with one who is loved less. Let it be added that if Jacob hated Leah in a literal way, it is hardly believable that he would consent to take her as his wife at all! (See also Judges 14:16 and Deut. 21:15-17.)

Now here is another example from Jesus, Luke 16:13:

No servant can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other.

Such extremes of feeling would be atypical, but the extremes are not meant to be taken literally; the point is that one master will get more dedicated labor than the other. Now let's move into some secular works with the same sort of hyperbolic language. Fitzmeyer's Lukan commentary offers this example from Poimandes 4:6:

If you do not hate your body first, O child, you will not be able to love yourself.

Would critics suppose that this teaches literal hatred of the physical body? It does not -- it emphasizes the need to give preference to the whole self before the body alone. Literal hate of the body would have us cutting it with razors or hitting it with blunt objects -- an extreme practiced in some Eastern faiths, but not among the Greeks! Here is another example from a war song in the Poetae Lyrici Graeci (see James Denney, The Word 'Hate' in Lk. 14:26, Expository Times 21, 41-42): it is said that in battle, men must count his own life his enemy for the honor of Sparta -- is this a literal hatred of one's own life being taught? No! It is emphasizing the need to make one's life secondary for Sparta's sake. Here's a final example from Epictetus 3.3.5: The good is preferable to every intimate relation. This is just a more abstract version of Luke 14:26!

Bottom line -- skeptics who think that Jesus is preaching literal and misogynist hate in this verse are doing no more than the usual -- thinking out of time, out of mind with the text, and in some cases (like Barker and C. Dennis McKinsey) letting their own hate get in the way of reading the text any way other than with wooden literalism.

In conclusion, you're kind of an idiot. Religion is a necessity to humans; without it, they become self-aggrandizing, pompous morons. Believe me, I used to be an agnostic, and that's as close as you should get to it. It frankly makes you a bad person, and gives you the impression you can take away everything fun about people's lives, since there will be no repercussions for you when you die except oblivion. I don't think zealotry is right either mind you; it's all about balance and self-control...but here I am, preaching to the proverbial believer. Go ruin someone else's schools, towns, and moral standards, or get smarter about how you think.

I'm just thankful I don't pretend to know it all and be so arrogant and insulting to a perfect God that I would challenge His perfect word - did you miss the part 'His thoughts are not your thoughts, His ways are not your ways' - in other words, they are HIGHER - bottom line: No man can come anywhere close to His level in any aspect - this, I know that I know: Jesus Christ paid the price for mans sins on the cross - every person will either accept or reject - if any person accepts Jesus as their Lord and Savior in their lifetime, they are Heaven-bound - being a good person, giving to charity, etc will not get you there - access only by God's gift to man (Jesus) !!

***In conclusion, you're kind of an idiot.***

CORRECT!

***Religion is a necessity to humans; without it, they become self-aggrandizing, pompous morons.***

INCORRECT! (sweeping statement) Also, there are PLENTY of theists who are self-aggrandizing, pompous morons too...

***Believe me, I used to be an agnostic, and that's as close as you should get to it. It frankly makes you a bad person, and gives you the impression you can take away everything fun about people's lives, since there will be no repercussions for you when you die except oblivion.***

INCORRECT! (personal experience is not universal)

If you read the following chapters carefully, you'll find that there was a significant amount of time that elapsed from the killing of the cattle, through the plagues, all the way into the gathering at the Red Sea. Months had passed from the killing of cattle to the time Pharoh told Moses to take the Israelites and go. Also, God was to the children of Israel a pillar of fire by night and a cloud by day leading them. Why? to give the almost 2 million people, flocks etc. ample time to get away. It only stands to reason that Pharoh, during that time, would have either bought or stolen horses from a neighboring country. Horses and chariots were the primary tool for war of the Egyptian army and not having them would've meant destruction for Egypt.
Onto the next subject. The garden of Gethsemane. Jesus took His disciples, the eleven, with Him. He then asked Peter, James and John to go on further to watch and pray with Him. When Jesus spoke it was to Peter, James and John, verse 40, What, could ye not watch with Me one hour? When Christ came back from prayer the third time he was talking to the 11 disciples with Him. Verse 46, Rise let us be going behold, he is at hand that doth betray Me.
Lastly, the hate issue. Jesus is asking His followers to be devoted to Him. Jesus wants His followers to be purly and wholly committed to Him. If we love our lives more than Christ our future lives or opportunity for heaven are lost. That is what's meant by hating our own lives. By denying our self will, our self seeking attitudes, pleasure for ourselves etc. It is when we humans yield ourselves to Christ and bend the knee to His authority that then we can truly live. With a right relationship in Christ.
Christ is not asking us to hate people as it would contradict His nature and He said it Himself, I am the Lord, I change not. God loves you and all of us but doesn't want us to live in such a way that will ultimately seperate us from Him eternally. Jesus died on our belhalf to give us the life we don't deserve nor could ever hope to earn on our own.
Hope this helps.

From: joseph1949
To: ruben1211

Dear ruben1211:

Thank you for your “kind” words. Your words will give me warmth on a cold winter day.

O.K. let’s get down to business.

You really did not answer Questions 1 and 2. Like all conservative Christians you like to equivocate when you are given a question which you cannot give a logical, straight forward answer to.

Now, I call you a conservative Christian even though you call yourself a Wiccan because you said the following:

If you want to go canonical though, I would point out Matthew 28:8-20; in that same text you just tried to ridicule for inconsistencies, there is written the fact that Jesus resurrected and hung out with his people for a while, during which time it is perfectly reasonable to suspect he may have recounted his last few days on earth, and in particular his conversations with the big G-O-D...after all, if I was a disciple, that's what I would ask about!

You state the Resurrection was a fact. In my book that makes you a Christian and not a Wiccan.

Here is the definition of “Wiccan”:
Someone who follows the religion of Wicca. Wicca is a nature-based religion based on pre-Christian beliefs that honors the earth as sacred and sees deity as both male and female, God and Goddess. Wicca was founded by Gerald Gardner in the 1950’s.

Ruben1211, if you are a Wicca then there must be a foam-at-the- mouth Christian sect of Wicca with you as its only member. I say this because you called me an idiot. You called me an idiot because you were not able to answer my questions. This makes no sense. Maybe you were looking in the mirror when you were typing this.

Let me proceed to question 3. Did you not see the following statement?:

[Let’s state a ground rule here that “hate” does not mean “less love”.]

I wrote the statement because based on past history Christians like to use the old canard that says “hate” means “less love”.

Based on your answers to Question 3 you did not see this statement.

Let us examine you answers to Question 3. You quoted Genesis 29:30-1. My reading of this tells me that God gave Leah a C-section. Talk about tough love!!!

You quoted Luke 16:13. It looks like “hate” and “despise” are one and the same. Is “despise” the same as “less love”- I think not.

Ruben1211, words do mean something. I do believe that the authors of the Bible would have used a different word then “hate” if they really meant “less love”. The Greek/Hebrew/Latin languages are not so deficit in words so as to use “hate” for “less love”. Hate means hate-period!

Your turn ruben1211.

I second what gasmanobt3 says. . . Good answer gas.

From: joseph1949
To: gasmanobt3

mealw, you should read this to since you agree with what gasmanobts said.

Thank you for your reply. mealw says that your answers where good. They are “good”, but wrong. I will show you why.

You said that there was sufficient time for the Egyptians to find more horses. Could you please show me the exact quotes (I.e. chapter and verse) where we can find the interval of time.

Actually there is no need to go to the trouble of finding the quotes. If we assume that the Egyptians had enough time to find the horses why pray tell did not your God kill the horses for a second time?

Here are some sites you may want to go to:

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/03/world/africa/03exodus.html?_r=1oref=slogin
If this does not work, go to Google and type in the exact phrase-Did the Red Sea Part? No Evidence, Archaeologists Say. This is a New York Times article.

http://www.atheistresource.co.uk/redsea.html
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12143a.htm

You mention two million people were trying to flee from Pharaoh. The problem with this is that there is no archaeological evidence for this. Two million people would leave behind lots of garbage (especially after wandering the country side for a number of years). We have no evidence of this garbage. Now, it is possible that your God became a divine garbage collector and pickup the garbage, but I do not think so.

Your answer to the Garden question looked good for second or two, but my one brain cell kicked in and saved the day.

Like most Christians if I ask you the question –Who wrote the gospels? You would say Mathew, Mark, Luke, and John. I would then say that I was not asking for the names of the Gospels, but –Who wrote the gospels? Understand? No.

O.K., the problem is that Christians think we know who wrote the gospels. We do not know. Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John are the names of the gospels-as in 1,2,3,4; A,B,C,D, etc.

Here are some sites that you may want to go to:

http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/mbible4.html
http://www.bidstrup.com/bible.htm
http://www.onr.com/user/bejo/4gospels.htm

Basically what Biblical scholars think is that the gospels were written around 70 A.D. The people who wrote the gospels were not contemporaries of Jesus. They had no first hand knowledge of Jesus.

So, we still have the question of who was running around the Garden with a flashlight spying on Jesus.

Here is my answer to your answer for Question 3. It is the same answer that I gave to reben1211.
Let me proceed to question 3. Did you not see the following statement?:

[Let’s state a ground rule here that “hate” does not mean “less love”.]

I wrote the statement because based on past history Christians like to use the old canard that says “hate” means “less love”.

Based on your answers to Question 3 you did not see this statement.

Let us examine your answers to Question 3. You quoted Genesis 29:30-1. My reading of this tells me that God gave Leah a C-section. Talk about tough love!!!

You quoted Luke 16:13. It looks like “hate” and “despise” are one and the same. Is “despise” the same as “less love”- I think not.

Ruben1211, words do mean something. I do believe that the authors of the Bible would have used a different word then “hate” if they really meant “less love”. The Greek/Hebrew/Latin languages are not so deficit in words so as to use “hate” for “less love”. Hate means hate-period!

With best regards
Joseph1949

From: joseph1949
To: eleni

Thank you for your reply. I thought I was the only atheist. It is good to have some company.

If you read the replys to my questions you will see that conservative Christians cannot answer my questions in a straight forward manner. Now, I have to admit my three questions were created to make Christians think. There is no easy out for the Christians. The Christians have to go outside their Bible to answer the questions.
They cannot do this. They think if they go outside the Bible their souls will be corrupted. They will become one of us- ATHEISTS. Oh the horror!!!

Making an Christian think is no easy task. They have not been taught how to think in a logical manner. They have to equivocate. They know no other way. They have to create new situations to make sense of the Bible. If the Bible does not say it the Christian will say it for the Bible (I.e. have Jesus say or do something that he never said so as to prove their case).

Conservative Christians think the Bible is a history book. It is not a history book. It is a book of faith. I am trying with my questions to get Christians to understand this. So far, as you can see, I have not been successful.

Thank you

We have Faith that it is History. . . And you have Faith it is not. You ever heard of Lee Strobel? He once thought as you and set out to prove God Didn't exist. . . now his is an Atheist-turned-Christian. . . . You sound much like he once did.
http://www.leestrobel.com/
I provided a link here to his site so you may challenge him.

Neal, you can always bring up the Prove Or Disprove challenge... I doubt they'll succeed either...

I'm waiting for Shepard to show up I was just giving joseph1949 something to pass his time with.
Myself I find the second 2 questions simple answers Peter, James and John and the word was inspired by God. If you believe in God this is no problem. If not why are you worried about it?
The 3rd Yes The original greek word used in the Scripture does mean Less Love . If We don't Love Jesus more than all others we are not worthy of him.
Besides I'd rather live with hope of a new life in heaven than thinking it's all over when I die. . . Hey if your right we have nothing to worry about but if I'm right.. . . . .

To: Shepard, Neal, mealw, gasmanobt3, captainassassin
From: joseph1949

Here are sites that you can go to concerning your hero-Lee Strobe:

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/jeff_lowder/strobel.html
http://www.infidels.org/
You can also read the following book: Chalenging the Verdict: A Cross-Examination of Lee Strobel's The Case for Christ by Earl Doherty.

Lee Strobe is someone who makes money selling books, tapes, etc to Christians who do not know any better.

Who is this Shepard? Is he someone I should be afraid of? Does he know more than I do? Is he your hired gun, mealw? Is Shapard going to box my ears for me?

Can Shepard answer my questions without equivocating-I doubt it.

Mealw, you have the disagreeable habit of letting other people talk for you. You say nothing (because you know nothing) and thus I will ignore you.

I will be addressing your replies tomorrow.

Good night

Observation:

Any of us may fall over on our keyboard and take our last breath in the next 5 minutes - given that fact, the most important question you must know the answer to: If I died today, where would I spend eternity ?...any others pale by far in comparison...especially playing athiest/Christian 'I got ya' !

Exodus 8:27 We will go three days' journey into the wilderness to sacrifice to the Lord our God, as He shall command us.
That was how long the Israelites were to travel after leaving Egypt.
But to answer your question for more specific a timeline. Here you go.
Exodus 9:1 And the Lord said to Moses, Go unto Pharoh, and tell him, Thus says the Lord God of the Hebrews, Let My people go, that they may serve Me. 1 day.
Exodus 9:5 And the Lord appointed a set time. saying, on the morrow the Lord shall do this in the land. Day 2
Exodus 9:8 And the Lord said unto Moses and Aaron, Take unto you handfuls of ashes of the furnace, and let Moses sprinkle it toward heaven in the sight of Pharoh. Day 3.
Exodus 9:13 And the Lord said unto Moses, Rise up early in the morning, and stand before Pharoh, and say unto him, Thus says the Lord God of the Hebrews, let My people go, that they may serve Me. Day 4
Exodus 9:18 Behold tomorrow about this time I will cause it to rain a very grievous hail, such as none has been in Egypt since the foundation thereof even until now. Day 5
Exodus 10:3 And Moses and Aaron came unto Pharoh, and said unto him, How long wilt thou refuse to humble thyself before Me? Let my people go, that they may serve Me. Day 6
Exodus 10:4 Else, if thou refuse to let My people go, behold tomorrow will I bring locusts into thy coasts. Day 7
Exodus 10:23They saw not one another, niether rose any from his place for three days: but all the children of Israel had light in their dwellings. Days 8,9,10
Exodus 10:24 And Pharoh called for Moses, and said, Go and serve the Lord your God, only let your flocks and herds be stayed, let your little ones go with you also. Day11
Exodus 11:4 And Moses said, thus says the Lord, About midnight will I go out in the land of Egypt. Day 12
Exodus 12:3 Speak unto the children of Israel, in the tenth day of this month they shall take to them every man a lamb, according to the house of their fathers, a lamb for an house. Day 22
Exodus 12:6 And ye shall keep the lamb until the fourteenth day of the same month: and the whole of the congreation shall kill it in the evening. Day 26
Exodus 12:18 In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month at even, ye shall eat unleavened bread, until the one and twentieth day of the month at even. Day 33
Then the 3 day journey to the Red Sea. Day 34,35,36. So there was at least 36 days for Pharoh to have acquired horses for the assault on the Israelites at the Red Sea. God killed them a second time because Pharohs heart was so hard that he wouldn't let the Israelites get away because they did all the hard labour. God was proving to Egypt and to the Israelites that He ALONE is God and none other. None of Pharoh's magicians could ever hope to equal the power of God. Also, God drowned them because they would not heed the word of the Lord and allow them to go.
What kind of garbage were you looking for. McDonalds wrappers?? The people of that time used what they had to the fullest and then burned what was not needed or it was reused for something else. Tools etc.
The word opened her womb means that her natural womanly state was restored. Basically she had her womanly cycle again.
And no it does not mean less love. I love my wife and family and friends. Do I hate them or love them less than God?? No.
I answered your query in the second question. What matters is what was written not which person wrote it. And yes, I believe the bible is Holy Spirit inspired, written by the hands of men.

***Any of us may fall over on our keyboard and take our last breath in the next 5 minutes - given that fact, the most important question you must know the answer to: If I died today, where would I spend eternity?***

You talk about death waaay too often. Christians shouldn't have such a morbid state of mind.

Yawwwn...Religion is the cause of all wars, now I can see why. Nobody really KNOWS anything, and if history is anything to go by, much of what we BELIEVE now is just incorrect, and misguided thoughts. WE ARE ALL ONE...animals, trees, rocks, water humans are just the dust from stars. If a GOD created man in his OWN image, he has a lot of explaining to do.

In my experience, people will not go beyond their comfort zone until they are ready to. There's no sense in goading others or pushing them. Sure, it would be nice if people would question things but to try to force their hand is the equivalent, in my opinion, of Christian proselytizing at its worst.

I prefer to lead the best life I can and be a good example for others. If a Christian can look at me as an atheist and see that I am a good person who does not wish to hurt them or take away their religion, then I feel I've accomplished something good. We have to take small steps, I think, in coming together as a people.

Nevertheless, I do feel hurt and angry when people assume I am arrogant or elitist just because I don't share their beliefs. If they bothered to get to know me, they might find out there are reasons why I do not other than simply sin and rebellion.

To: joseph1949
If I find someone who can explain it better than me I simply agree with them rather than waste bytes on a server.
And I noticed your questions were not original either after doing some research. Seems a smart guy like you could come up with some original questions instead of asking someone elses.

and Captain To someone looking forward to life in heaven, death is not morbid. It's a new beginning.