George washington, not a christian, so why the fervor?

The founding president of the country, and second president, were both non Christians. So...why is the religious right so crazy about trying to convert the country when, from inception, it wasn't that way?

Debating is great jimahl, debating religion is not what you do. You ridicule. I can't think anyone who has called you a moron for being an atheist, or dumb or it is stupid. You attack those who have a belief that you do not. Chiding them and asking why not pray to Santa Claus or the Easter Bunny?

I will debate religion all you want. Where do you want to start? I do not ridicule people for being christian, or any faith. I challenge people who are ignorant, like those who deny evolution because it interferes with their faith. I happen to find that particular practice of fait dangerous. You feigned outrage comes off sounding rather silly. I don't tell people to pray to santa or the easter bunny. I just point out that the effect is the same as praying to any diety.

Public message board? Yes Right to Post? Yes I do not bash anyones skulls?

Nor do I. Show me where I have.

NO I debate?

Do you call ignoring what I am saying and attacking my tactics debate? It sure doesn't to me.

No And the question is why? I don't know jimahl why you do what you do, but I do know that what you do on the religion postings is not debate.

Why, because I challenge it? Because I express my opinion about what religion really is about?

Get over yourself seao2florida...

Franklin, Jefferson, Madison, Paine and even Lincoln were also not christians.

The idea that the US was founded by devout chrisitians is simply a myth.

Jimahi I find it odd that you have Lincon and Obama shifting on your picture. Or even that you would mention the founding fathers because Obama believed they were wrong. He said that the founding fathers Constitution is a charter of negative liberties. As for the constant bickering over religion and evolution we are both with faults. By my reasoning I believe that evolutionist are forcing their faith upon religious people. Take for example that if your child was invited to speak at a school function for outstanding performance and they believed that it was their faith in God that inspired them to work hard for their achievments they would not be allowed to admit it. Although I do believe that the schools should not teach religious conviction but they should for the sake of tollerance be taught that there are those who believe in religion. As for the details of religion should be taught by those educated in those elements. Nothing could be worse for my religion then for a teacher to teach its aspects without fully understanding the faith. Understand that by our faith we are not to force our religion on other people but we are required to teach it.

Are we splicing hairs here? When you say they were not Christian, it feels implied that they were of some other religious sect, or not religious at all...this wasn't the case with Washington, Franklin, or Lincoln...it's a little up in the air on Jefferson, who maybe was a Diest...however, Diest's believe in God.

Quote from his biography...

yet he was anything but irreligious, anything but an enemy to Christian faith. Our nation's third president was, in fact, a student of Scripture who attended church regularly, and was an active member of the Anglican Church, where he served on his local vestry. He was married in church, sent his children and a nephew to a Christian school, and gave his money to support many different congregations and Christian causes.

From a letter written by George Washington’s adopted daughter Nelly Parke Custis Lewis in 1833 talking about her father…..

It was his custom to retire to his library at nine or ten o'clock, where he remained an hour before he went to his chamber. He always rose before the sun, and remained in his library until called to breakfasdt [sic]. I never witnessed his private devotions. I never inquired about them. I should have thought it the greatest heresy to doubt his firm belief in Christianity. His life, his writings, prove that he was a Christian. He was not one of those who act or pray, that they may be seen of men. He communed with his God in secret.

My mother resided two years at Mount Vernon, after her marriage with John Parke Custis, the only son of Mrs. Washington. I have heard her say that General Washington always received the sacrament with my grandmother before the revolution. When my aunt, Miss Custis, died suddenly at Mount Vernon, before they could realize the event, he knelt by her and prayed most fervently, most affectingly, for her recovery. Of this I was assured by Judge Washington's mother, and other witnesses.

A few weeks before his death at age 84, Benjamin Franklin summarized his religious beliefs:

You desire to know something of my religion. It is the first time I have been questioned upon it. But I cannot take your curiosity amiss, and shall endeavor in a few words to gratify it.

Here is my creed.

·I believe in one God, the creator of the universe.
·That he governs by his providence.
·That he ought to be worshipped.
·That the most acceptable service we render to him is doing good to his other children.
·That the soul of man is immortal, and will be treated with justice in another life respecting its conduct in this.

p

...Understand that by our faith we are not to force our religion on other people but we are required to teach it.

And therein lies the problem. A lot of people I've met who are non Christians know more Christian history, etc, than the Christians do that attend church...and, Obama, if he said that, was wrong.

Then again, the founders of the country didn't give right to women. They were wrong in that, of course . I was only pointing out one issue...besides, given the language heritage of the US (English) and how England switched *from* Catholicism only so a King could get a divorce to protestantism...well, doesn't it make sense to have setup the country as they did, with Church State separated?

Then we can go further back wonder, how did England become Christian / Catholic, and look at the killings and or threats of middle dark age rulers as the turning point...far, far better to keep the violent and adulterous history that resulted in modern day beliefs in England far away from the United States.

Obama's ENTIRE quote

The Supreme Court never ventured into the issues of redistribution of wealth, and of more basic issues such as political and economic justice. (The Warren Court) didn't break free from the essential constraints that were placed by the Founding Fathers in the Constitution ... that generally the Constitution is a charter of negative liberties. Says what the states can't do to you. Says what the federal government can't do to you but doesn't say what the federal government or state government must do on your behalf.

Well, it was written at time when individual persons fully expected to take care of their own basic needs (or by their church, or even neighbors)...not fullfilled by the government. They left England for freedom from the monarchy...there was fear of an overbearing government...NOT fear that they wouldn't be able to care for self...

p

I was taught in school, and all thruout my life, that this nation, was birthed for religious freedom, and that the laws, etc. were all based on the bible. I will never believe otherwise, and I have watched the slide downhill in my lifetime, I fear for what kind of country we will have 15 years down the road, should Jesus tarry.

silverwings, you say that this nation was birthed for religious freedom yet you want a christian nation.
I just don't get it.

I think what he's trying to imply is that Christians are being condemned for their religion by atheists, and in this way Christians do not actually enjoy religious freedom

***I will never believe otherwise,***

even if you are shown evidence to the contrary?

By my reasoning I believe that evolutionist are forcing their faith upon religious people.

First, evolutionist is a nonsense-term. There are _scientists_, but evolution is not a belief in the same way that creationism or christianity is.

Take for example that if your child was invited to speak at a school function for outstanding performance and they believed that it was their faith in God that inspired them to work hard for their achievments they would not be allowed to admit it.

Nobody is trying to prohibit that. The objection is to state sanctioned or enforced religious observations. If you as an individual want to express your religious faith - including in an acceptance speech - you're welcome to. What you or anyone else can't do is expect everyone to pray, or to add religious rituals to a state function.

I'm sure there were atheists in the 1700's just as there are now. But the bulk of this nation was judo-christian. Since then we have accepted all faiths who come here. As to the religious right, I find that term sometimes used to label anyone who believes in a God or is just spiritual. Not all are banging on your door on Saturdays, and not all of us are trying to convert you.

I do have issue with some here who have the stated purpose of bashing theists skulls. I will not try to convert you, and if there were an atheist section to this website I don't believe I'd ever post on it. I would read through it, because that is what I do, I gather information from many places about most things in my life. But as someone who believes in a power greater than myself, I don't feel very qualified to speak to atheism. I don't know what I'd have to offer them except that which they don't want. Atheism has nothing to offer me but an opposing point of view, which I will keep looking at, because hey, no one has empirical proof of God, maybe an atheist will come up with some empirical proof he doesn't exist and then I can change my mind. We haven't been able to show how life or the universe began. I'm banking Stephen Hawkins is right.

Jimahi I find it odd that you have Lincon and Obama shifting on your picture.

tseirpeht, why would you find it odd. The man who ended slavery and the first black president seems pretty logical to me.

Or even that you would mention the founding fathers because Obama believed they were wrong. He said that the founding fathers Constitution is a charter of negative liberties.

First off, if you are going to put something in quotes, make sure it is accurate. This came from the 2001 PBS interview that wingnuts tried to use to prove hObama is a socialist. He is a constiutional scholar, so I will take his word for it. Here is the actual quote: And to that extent, as radical as I think people try to characterize the Warren Court, it wasn’t that radical. It didn’t break free from the essential constraints that were placed by the Founding Fathers in the Constitution, at least as it’s been interpreted, and the Warren Court interpreted it in the same way that generally the Constitution is a charter of negative liberties. It says what the states can’t do to you, says what the federal government can’t do to you, but it doesn’t say what the federal government or the state government must do on your behalf. And that hasn’t shifted.

You really should start getting info from real sources and not conservative wingnuts.

As for the constant bickering over religion and evolution we are both with faults. By my reasoning I believe that evolutionist are forcing their faith upon religious people.

Evolution is science, not faith. End of discussion...

Take for example that if your child was invited to speak at a school function for outstanding performance and they believed that it was their faith in God that inspired them to work hard for their achievments they would not be allowed to admit it.

Do you know this, or is this hypothetical. No one would be prevented from saying they got their inspiration, or whatever from god. They would not however be able to give a religious sermon.

Although I do believe that the schools should not teach religious conviction but they should for the sake of tollerance be taught that there are those who believe in religion.

And who is saying they don't or can't? My son is taking AP global history right now, and they are learning about all regions. You can't study history without including religious belief.

As for the details of religion should be taught by those educated in those elements.

You mean like sunday school? I have no problem with that.

Nothing could be worse for my religion then for a teacher to teach its aspects without fully understanding the faith. Understand that by our faith we are not to force our religion on other people but we are required to teach it.

There is no reason religion should even come up in school unless it is part of a history class, or maybe a sociology class. YOUR religion should be taught by YOUR religious organization. Not in public schools. Read the first amendment.

Seao2florida, please stop with the bashing theists skulls crap. It was a private joke to me on my profile. I have already explained that. This is the second time you brought it up in a public question.

As to the religious right, I find that term sometimes used to label anyone who believes in a God or is just spiritual.

No true at all. There are many liberals, Obama being one, who have religious faith. The difference is the relgious right wants to ram it down peoples throat. They want it codified in our laws. They want religious iconography displayed in public places. Most of the religious left is content to keep their faith to themselves.

Well not everyone here is from the religious right. And with your belief that we don't want the Commander-in-Chief praying to the Easter Bunny or the Tooth Fairy, how could you vote for Obama? I do believe he might be more religious than John McCain.

And bashing theists skulls seems to be what you patrol these waters for.

Yes, you are right, not everyone is. There are many who are not zealots. But there are many who are.

I respect anyones right to believe what they want, and I really don't have much of a choice about supporting a president who believes in god, since atheists are so discriminated against. We will have a jewish or even a muslim president before we have an openly atheist one.

This is a public message board and I have just as much a right to post as thiests do as long as I don't break the rules. I do not bash anyone skulls, I debate. Do you not understand that was a joke between RG and me, and it means something to us that it doesn't to you.

Debating is great jimahl, debating religion is not what you do. You ridicule. I can't think anyone who has called you a moron for being an atheist, or dumb or it is stupid. You attack those who have a belief that you do not. Chiding them and asking why not pray to Santa Claus or the Easter Bunny?

***I respect anyones right to believe what they want, and I really don't have much of a choice about supporting a president who believes in god, since atheists are so discriminated against.***

Respect anyone's right to believe what they want? No you don't you attack and ridicule them.

I won't address the next one, you're just whining.

***This is a public message board and I have just as much a right to post as thiests do as long as I don't break the rules. I do not bash anyone skulls, I debate***

Public message board? Yes Right to Post? Yes I do not bash anyones skulls? NO I debate? No And the question is why? I don't know jimahl why you do what you do, but I do know that what you do on the religion postings is not debate.

*** I can't think anyone who has called you a moron for being an atheist, or dumb or it is stupid.***

Well... you haven't been here very long... so how could you know?

And there goes jimahl's stalking cheerleader.

I'm correcting YOU when you're WRONG... which is often. It doesn't matter who you're talking to; and your inability to deny my statement only proves I'm right... once again...

If you would try to focus on the issues, instead of trying and failing to be witty or antagonistic, you might be taken more seriously. But no...